Oral history interview with Joe and Marie Rolle, [with transcript], February 22, 2010.

              Joe and Marie Rolle
Interviewed by Peter Runge 
Camera by Delia Muñoz
February 22, 2010 

Runge:  This is Peter Runge and Delia Muñoz from Northern Arizona University’s Cline Library, interviewing Joe and Marie Rolle.  Today is Monday, February 22, 2010, and we’re conducting the oral history at the Rolle residence in Flagstaff, Arizona.  First, I’d like to thank you, Joe and Marie, for inviting us into your home and agreeing to be interviewed today.  This interview will be part of the NAU Lumberjack Timbers Oral History Project documenting the experiences of Arizona State College and Northern Arizona University alumni, and you guys are one of our very first interviews. Joe, let’s start with a little biographical information, leading up to your times as a student at Arizona State College.  Would you tell us when and where you were born?
J. Rolle:  I was born September 5, 1917, in Bisbee, Arizona.  My mother had six children, and two of my sisters are gone, and Mom and Dad are gone, of course.  I enjoyed coming to Flagstaff, because Coach McCreary came down to see me, and I was a pretty good basketball player at Bisbee High School.  McCreary gave me a job, which meant that I would work three hours, for my room and board, in the dining hall.  And that was seven days a week, and it paid for my room and board.  My family, my dad was a miner, and Mom was [quite a linguist?].  It was an opportunity to get a degree, and so I was quick to accept it-not only accept it, but I found a real home when I came to Northern Arizona University.  I have a great love for NAU.  All my days here were wonderful.  I was treated royally.  I have enjoyed being here, and in fact I’ll die here.  And I think the important thing really is that it’s a wonderful institution.  Anyone that comes here will never say that they made a mistake.  They will just say, "Oh, it’s exactly what we wanted."  And I think that I have enjoyed every minute that I have been here, and that’s a long, long time.  ’37 [1937] is when I returned as a student and spent four years and got a degree.  It was after I had spent four years in the military.  Dr. Tom Bellwood, who was about second in command at that time, and he was my teacher as well as a very good friend, and he came to the capital where, after the military, I was the state tax commission, and I was the head cashier of that area.  And as a result, why, when Tom Bellwood just said, "Joe, would you like to return to Flagstaff?" I said, "I would love to do it, but we have two boys now, and my salary is $5,000, you would have to meet it."  Incidentally, he did not meet it.  (laughter)  He promised me at the time that he was going to do it.  But anyway, I was happy to return.  You know, that’s a lot of years here.  I love the place, and how couldn’t someone that has been treated as royally as Marie and I, insofar as the university....  And so as a result, why, you know, it’s hard to beat something that’s perfect.  And I am perfect to this day.  I’ll always love it, because it was kind to us, as well as we were kind to them too.  But by the same token, I think the important thing really is, you know, if you’re happy, you perform better.  So that is the openers. 
Runge:  Thanks.  I’d like to take a step back.  You said you had six siblings, brothers and sisters.
J. Rolle:  Oh yeah, my mother and father had six children.
Runge:  Oh, a total of six.  Okay.
J. Rolle:  Two of my sisters, Marge and Catherine, are deceased.  They went pretty early, and I don’t know why.  They had my brother Charles, who is a retired medical doctor, and he’s in Palm Springs, California.  He’s an anatomical and critical pathologist, and he was always very good to the family.  I can remember when he went to the U. of A., he had said to Mom and Dad he was going to be a mining engineer.  And that was a fat, fat lie.  (laughter)  The whole family knew that, but he felt that that was a more receptive major that they would receive, because a lot of young people down there in Bisbee were over to the U. of A., and they were in engineering and different thing, mining engineering and different things.  But he made Mom and Dad feel, [unclear], and we would grab ourselves and say, "Why are you telling a lie?  Just tell her the truth.  Tell 'em the truth, they need to know that."  And so anyway, they accepted it, and he went over there.  Incidentally he was a fine student, and later became a medical doctor.  I think that just goes to show you that people are down in a mining camp, you have to work for what you earn, but the mines were very generous to people.  I never was lucky enough, but when some of the young men came back, they tried to keep jobs for the young people, and it was a nice salary to build a little amount of money for when they do return for the second, third, or fourth year. I’m so happy of being born and raised in Bisbee, because the people were very, very generous to all the students that were going on.  And you know, they’d always inquire from Mom and Dad, "How’s the boys doing?" and how are my sisters doing, and this and that.  A lot of those young people in Bisbee didn’t have the wherewith, except the salary that Dad was making in the mines, and they didn’t have the opportunity to come to a university.  And part of mine was responsible for McCreary, which I mentioned, who was the basketball coach.  And he came down, and I had a pretty good night one night, and he said, "Would you like to come?"  And I said, "Yes, I would," and here I landed.  (chuckles)
Runge:  So you and your brother went to college.  Did your parents kind of encourage that with all your siblings?
J. Rolle:  Well, you know, family encouraged it a lot.  My brother was a very bright person, and he pushed it.  I think the nice thing about it is moms and dads always felt they didn’t have a lot of money, and if you went to Tucson it was going to be higher than NAU, and it would even be higher at Tempe.  And so as a result, this was my choice.  My choice was because McCreary came down, saw me in a ball game that was a lot of points, and said would I like to come, and I said I’d love it.
Runge:  That was pretty fortunate that he came down on that night that you had a really hot shooting night.  (laughter)  One of the questions I wanted to ask you about was when you first came here in 1937, campus, the town, it must have been significantly different.  What were your first impressions when you arrived here?
J. Rolle:  Well, you know, it seems that there was a group of us from Globe, Miami, that met on the same bus that brought us up here.  As we came in, we could see the old mill over there, and this and that, and one of my comments was, "Oh my God, look what we got into!"  (laughter)  It was the people here.  Our instructors were such wonderful people.  I, on occasion, was guilty of missing a couple of geography classes in Dr. Allen’s class.  And Dr. Allen said to me, "You know, Joe, you missed a few classes.  Now, because you’re student body president and in my class doesn’t mean that gives you any more freedom to miss.  I would prefer that you get back and not miss another class for the rest of the semester."  And I said to her, "I shall do that," because I was very fond of Dr. Allen, and I think she was a wonderful teacher, and very willing to help young people that needed a little push or a little bit of help.  How many teachers would say to you, "You’re missing a few too many classes and you’d better get with it"?  And she was 
Runge:  Why did you miss her classes?  Did you have other things going on related to student government?  (clock chimes)
J. Rolle:  You know, I was student body president in my junior year and in my senior year, and as a result, on a couple of occasions, Dr. Allen mentioned something, that I missed a few.  They were in the afternoon, there’s no reason for it.  And so as a result....  She’s a wonderful lady.  I really enjoyed her.  And I took a couple of classes from her, and she was a marvelous teacher.  She loved NAU and was here a long time, as so many of the teachers I had.
Runge:  Joe, where were most of the classes taught in the late thirties, early forties?  Which buildings?
J. Rolle:  Over in what now is the Education Building, the first building.  They were there.  Dr. Allen taught there, and Dr. Bellwood, and different ones.  Dr. Bellwood was accounting.  That’s where several of my classes were.  And then we had classes over in Old Main.  There is a time in my life when I had a little visit with Dr. Walkup.  Dr. Walkup had made up his mind that we should make a dormitory out of that.  And frankly, knowing me, I did not encourage it.  And the reason I didn’t encourage it, because if you go over there today, you will find that every one of those staircases was lumber.  And if somebody on the third floor had ever got caught in a trap, they wouldn’t have gotten out, because depending on how fast that fire went or got to, then it would tell you that there is a degree of danger here.  And so I think that’s the only time I really ever had some words with Dr. Walkup, where I was feeling very strongly about it, and I thought that this is not a very smart thing to do.  And he said he was going to go ahead with it.  Thank God he didn’t!  Because it could have been a real fire trap.  You know, when you have three floors and everything is stairs up and down, including the basement.  So it was a dangerous degree that I was not very receptive to.
Runge:  That’s an insightful observation.  I mean, Flagstaff suffered that consequence three times early on its development where fires completely wiped out the town, so there was definitely a history of that.Speaking of dormitories, where did you live when you were a student, which dorm or dorms?
J. Rolle:  I lived in Taylor Hall, Room 212, four years.
Runge:  All four years!
J. Rolle:  And then I think I’ll leave the other part to Marie.  But we were the resident hall directors, with two sons, Marie and I, in Taylor Hall.  We were there a goodly number of years, and it was good, because we didn’t have to pay any rent, water, and gas, you know.  We enjoyed-and I think Marie would tell you, and I’ll let her do that-but I think that the students respected us, and that people that knew me, and the students that knew me, is that if I went into a room and it looked like a barn, I would leave a little note and say, "After you get this room cleaned up, I want you to come down and take me up to your room, I want to see it in a different condition than it is now."  And I’m sure I irritated a few people doing that.  But by the same token I thought, I don’t believe....  Because Tom Bellwood, when some of the dignitaries and some of the regents would come, that’s the only dorm he would take anybody to, was ours, because ours was pretty much ready most of the time.  I never announced the day I was going to take room check.  If I came in....  I remember one fellow that his room looked nice except he hadn’t made his bed.  And so I made his bed and said, "I think it looks better now, left him a note, and took off."  I think the important thing is that I think that there would be some of the students we had would say that sometimes maybe I was a little tough, but I think that I did it for their own good, and I didn’t do it just to have 'em make a bed.  So that young man came by (chuckles) and he said, "Thank you for making my bed."  It was just a little deal, but I never announced the day I was going to go around and look. Then another habit I had is that I officiated in the north for many years-football, basketball, and track.  There was the times, especially for basketball, when I’d be coming in at 10:30, 11:00, 12:00.  When I drove in out front, I would see lights.  I would go by and just knock on the door and check and say, "I’m just coming in from a basketball trip and I saw the lights, and I just wanted to make sure that somebody wasn’t sick and having a problem or something.  I think at first a few of the students kind of resented it, but I think that there came a time....  And then when I showed up, they knew....I have to tell one more story.  You know, Father Lindenmeyer was a very wonderful priest over here at the church.  He came and visited students in their dormitory rooms often.  One night when I came back from a ball game, I saw some lights.  I could tell you what that number was.  And so all I had to do was go there.  I knocked on the door and I said, "Is everybody okay?  No problems?"  And they said no.  And here jumps out of a closet, Father Lindenmeyer.  And so Father Lindenmeyer said to me the next day, he came by, and I said, "Father, how do you know about that?"  And he said, "When you left, I jumped out of the closet, because I didn’t want you to catch me in here."  But they were there having some cake and [unclear] for Lupe Acevedo and Fito Trujillo.  Those two guys were two of the finest basketball players we ever had.  Those two guys, I’ll tell you, were tremendous.  They were some high scorers in high school.  They had a basketball team going, they were making up in the 100s, 120s.  Those two were good, and they had four years of wonderful basketball here for Northern Arizona University. So the next morning, Father comes over, and I said, "Well now Father, how could you know that?"  And he said, "When you left...."  And I said, "You know, I had a piece of cake with the students."  He said, "I jumped out of the closet when you came up."  But that was the kind of a priest he was.  He was a wonderful priest.  And he happens to be our priest, and as a result, we were fond of him.  And he’d come over many times and have coffee in the morning.  We really enjoyed that priest.  He was a wonderful person, not really the man, because he was so good to the students, and he would go way out of his way to do that.  Now unless there’s a lot of more questions, I think my dear wife needs....
Runge:  I was going to ask her, you mentioned moving your family into Taylor Hall and raising a family.  At that time was Taylor all boys, all men?
M. Rolle:  No, we had two boys.
J. Rolle:  No, he’s talking about the men’s dorm.
Runge:  The dorm, was it occupied by male students or female students?
M. Rolle:  No, no.
J. Rolle:  No, all males.
Runge:  Men, yeah.  So how was that living with all those guys?
M. Rolle:  Well, it was fine.  I mean, I enjoyed it.  They used to come by.  We also had all the mail for the men students, in Taylor Hall, so they came from the other dorms to get their mail.  We were young, we loved it.  We lived there five years as head residents.
Runge:  Was it challenging raising two boys in that environment?
J. Rolle:  No, because they weren’t allowed to go into the boys’ rooms.  And from the apartment to the outdoors was the only place they were allowed to go.
Runge:  Where was the apartment in Taylor?
M. Rolle:  Taylor Hall?
Runge:  Yeah, where was the apartment that you guys lived in?  I imagine it was bigger than the dorm rooms, because those are fairly small.
J. Rolle:  Well, it was a two-bedroom.  They made it two bedrooms.  First it was just one bedroom, and when Dr. Eastburn asked us to move in as head residents, they took the room next to it for the two boys.  But they weren’t allowed to go into the rooms, and we were strict with them.
Runge:  With your boys, or the boys that lived in the dorm, the young men?  Or both?
M. Rolle:  Well, Joe was always known as being firm but fair.  We lived thirteen years on campus.  We went from Taylor Hall to-the College Union was just being built, and it was finished July 1, 1953, and we lived there until we built a home out in Coconino and moved there in 1960.  And we also had the bookstore in the Union Building, and one of the dining rooms, and then the auditorium.  So we spent a good several years on campus.
J. Rolle:  Two-bedroom.
Runge:  The apartment in the Union was a two-bedroom?
J. Rolle:  Uh-huh, they did that for us, [unclear].
Runge:  There are a couple of apartments there.  Aren’t there two or three?
J. Rolle:  [unclear]
Runge:  Yeah.
M. Rolle:  Mother Hanley lived in one.  The Hollys, Pete Holly, was the director of the Union Building.
J. Rolle:  [unclear] service, mostly.
M. Rolle:  They had a one-bedroom, and we had the two-bedroom.
Runge:  Where was the apartment in Taylor, was that in the basement?
M. Rolle:  No, it was upstairs.
Runge:  On the second floor?
M. Rolle:  Uh-huh.
Runge:  You just mentioned Mother Hanley; and Joe, you mentioned Mother Hanley earlier on, and I just wanted to touch base about Mother Hanley and your working for her.  You said you worked three hours a day for her.  Mother Hanley played a huge roll, not only for the university, but all the students that came there.  I mean, that’s how she got that nickname, Mother Hanley.
J. Rolle:  That’s right.
Runge:  I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about your relationship with her, and working with her.
J. Rolle:  Well, you know, I don’t like to compare her with my mother, but she was a second mother to the students.  Mother Hanley had an apartment over in the girls’ dorm, and every night she went through the hallway there.  In the wee hours of the morning, she opened up the dining hall.  She was the closest to a second mother that anyone could ever have.  She was a delightful lady.  She always was the same, and she treated all students alike.  Every once in a while....  I had a job in the dining hall that was three hours a day.  When I first started, it was five o’clock in the morning to eight.  And then Mother Hanley made me the person on the door that would ask or have all the students show-the students were good about showing their little dining hall ticket.  Every once in a while, a student would come by-and I never told Mother Hanley this-a student would come by and he said, "You know, Joe, I haven’t gotten my money from home, but it’s coming.  Are you gonna let me eat?"  And I said, "Pass."  She, to me, is the closest thing to my second mother.  She could never be my mother, but I loved her as if she was my mother.  A number of times you said, "Mother, how are you?"  Every morning when I greeted her at five o’clock, she was sitting at her little desk, and I would go in and say, "Mother, good morning!"  And then every once in a while when I would go in after playing in a basketball game, she said, "I heard you played a pretty good game last night."  And so I said, "Who told you that?"  She said, "Oh, one of the students."  That was five o’clock in the morning!  I don’t know how it ever got there, because it was closed after we got through there.  Mother Hanley was the type of person that I think we still have a copy of a letter from someone that didn’t have his meal ticket.  (to wife) I’ll let you tell that story.
M. Rolle:  That was after you came back.
J. Rolle:  I’ll let you tell that one, yeah.  But anyway, we had a student that didn’t have his money, and we gave him a little note that said, "We will personally stand good for this man’s meals until his money comes from home."  On several occasions we did that, but by the same token I think the important thing really is that the university never got gypped, because the students came through.  They were quality young men and women.  The nice thing really is that all of us kind of came from family backgrounds around Arizona, you know.  And as a result, some of the people that we played against, like in Tucson, came up here as a basketball player like I did.  We got to know each other pretty close.  [unclear] go back to Marie.
Runge:  What was your relationship like with Mother Hanley?  At one point you were neighbors with her.
M. Rolle:  Well, I came from Nebraska.  After Joe graduated, he came to....  It’s a long story about how I got here.  (chuckles)  But my father’s brother came to Prescott, his son had asthma.  And when he came back to Nebraska, all he talked about was Arizona.  So my dad said someday he was gonna move to Arizona.  In Springerville, up in the White Mountains, the Becker Mercantile Company had everything.  So my dad had been in lumber and hardware, so they hired him to come out as the manager of Becker Mercantile hardware and lumber.  And the family didn’t move out immediately because he wanted to be sure that he was going to like it.  But he loved it, so then I brought my mother out, and my family.  Then he came to coach at Round Valley High School.
Runge:  At which high school?
M. Rolle:  Round Valley in Springerville:  Springerville, Eagar, Nutrioso, Alpine, and Greer had one high school called Round Valley.
Runge:  How old were you when you moved out with your family?
M. Rolle:  I was probably about nineteen.
Runge:  Nineteen years old?
M. Rolle:  Uh-huh, nineteen.
Runge:  So this kind of leads to an interesting story, I suppose.
M. Rolle:  Well, I must have been a little bit older than that, because I was engaged when I came out.
Runge:  You were engaged back in Nebraska?
M. Rolle:  Yeah.
Runge:  And you moved out with your family to Arizona.  And then Joe, you were teaching at Springerville, weren’t you?
M. Rolle:  He’d just started.  Then he went into the service.  But it just turned out that way.
Runge:  So what happened?  Were you in the high school at the time as a student, or did you see Joe in town, or...?
M. Rolle:  No, I was through high school before I came out.
Runge:  So how did you and Joe meet?
M. Rolle:  Well, Springerville is a very small town.  Some other gals and I were having a Coke in the drugstore, and next door was the hotel where he was gonna be.  So he came up in his little Model A, and they were so excited that Joe Rolle was coming to coach.  And I looked at him, and I said, "He doesn’t look so hot to me."  (laughter)  I don’t know, but I don’t know.  But that’s how we met.  And then he went into the service.  And then I actually moved to St. Johns for a while.
Runge:  Was this while Joe was in the service you moved to St. Johns?
M. Rolle:  Yes.  I was with the Arizona State Social Security and Welfare.  Then I moved to-my boss moved to Flagstaff and requested my transfer.  So then I moved to Flagstaff.
Runge:  Still while Joe was in....
M. Rolle:  Yeah.
Runge:  So did you guys get married right before Joe was shipped out?  Or were you married a little before that?
M. Rolle:  No, we were married one month.  He was put on the alert to go overseas.  Oh, I had his engagement ring by that time.  And so he called and said, "I’m on the alert, and I’m going overseas.  Let’s get married!"  So I went down to Texas and we got married the day after Christmas.
J. Rolle:  I have to enter just a minute.  I kept telling her, "We’re alert for ALPAC [phonetic].  We have thousands of pounds, and we have like fifteen different vehicles that we had to have all ready to go."  I kept saying to her, "You need to get your buns down here if we’re going to get married."  Finally she came on Christmas Day.  We had dinner, and the next day....
M. Rolle:  The next day we were married.
J. Rolle:  The next day we went down to the Catholic church and married.  But you know, she was draggin’ her feet, and it bothered me a little bit.  And I just thought, "You know, look, if we’re gonna get married we need to get this over with!"  Actually, everything that we owned....  We had 353 men in our company, we were heavy automotive maintenance.  We took care of all the maintenance of 10-ton, 5-ton, whatever we had.  And we had all the equipment to repair all of those shots, you know, if they were down.  We could put 'em back in top shape.  But I was gettin’ a little worried about it, and I just thought maybe she was givin’ me the run-around or somethin’, you know.  I just thought I needed to get this clarified.  So anyway, I think the important thing really is that she came down.
M. Rolle:  Well, I told him that I needed to give two weeks notice.  And he said, "I may not be here in two weeks."  So I still gave my two weeks notice.
Runge:  Giving the two weeks notice, was that the cause for the delay for heading down to Texas to marry Joe?
M. Rolle:  Well, I just felt I owed them two weeks notice.  And I still got down there.  Then a month later, January 26th, he was on his way overseas.
Runge:  Wow, that’s cutting it kind of close.
J. Rolle:  Four years in the South Pacific, Ino-we-tok, Quadulant, and Guam.
Runge:  How many years?
J. Rolle:  Four years in the South Pacific.  And all of it was down there where we were furnishing Jeeps, 2-ton vehicles, and everything else.  And we had to keep all those in shape.  They’d break 'em up and bring 'em in to us, and then we would put them back in order.  And we did that through Ino-we-tok, Quadulant, Guam, and all those places.
Runge:  Well Marie, that must have been kind of tough on you.
M. Rolle:  Yeah.
Runge:  The first couple years you’re married, Joe’s in the South Pacific.
M. Rolle:  Yeah.  He insisted that I go back and live with my parents.  They had moved to Phoenix in the meantime, so I lived in Phoenix while he was gone.  And I worked.
Runge:  But still, even with your family there, and a job, it must have been emotionally kind of difficult knowing that the man you loved....
M. Rolle:  We had what was called the Wives Club.  It was servicemen’s wives.  And once a week the wives got together somewhere and did something.  But I went to work.  Then he finally got back, and we lived in Phoenix.  That’s when Dr. Bellwood came down and hired him for up here.
J. Rolle:  I just had a message in the last four or five days where one of the lieutenants that I spent the four years with....  I wrote back a note when they told me about him, and I just said he was one of the finest officers I ever served with.  And I think the nice thing about it is that’s important, to have good officers, and a closeness that is so important.  Well, four years of that is not a short period of time, and you got to be-you treat 'em like your brothers.
Runge:  Joe, I wanted to ask, when you were at school, Thomas Tormey  was the president of the college at that time, and then Tom Bellwood became president.  Bellwood was there as an administrator and a teacher when Tormey was there.  Did you have any contact with him as a student?
J. Rolle:  What was that now?
Runge:  Tom Bellwood.
J. Rolle:  Oh yeah, Tom Bellwood was like a second dad.  Tom Bellwood was very sick during the latter part.  A total of three of us went down to visit him because he was home in bed.  No, I’m sorry, he was not in bed at home, he was at the hospital, and we went down and saw some time.  I was talking to Tom, and when we got ready to leave, before that I went over and got down at the side of Tom and I said, "You know, you have been a real friend, and not only a good friend but you helped so many young people.  I just want you to know that all of us appreciate that."  Needless to say....
M. Rolle:  Incidentally, we came the same day Dr. Eastburn came.  Dr. Eastburn was in Phoenix, and he came as president on July 1, 1947.  And Joe started the same day as he did.
Runge:  That’s some good company.
M. Rolle:  Yeah.  He was very good to us.
J. Rolle:  All the presidents that we’ve served under have been good to us-even the present president.  He and his wife are very good to us.  We appreciate that greatly, and we have told him that many times over those years, because they were nice to us.  You have to recognize that and let them know, too-that’s the important thing-that they’re our friends, they’re our teachers.  In fact, while I’m on that, I’m gonna tell a story.
There was a fellow named Ernie Muñoz who was valedictorian for four years.  I happened to know when I went to get my student teacher assignment as a teacher of the fourth grade, Ernie Muñoz, the teacher had given him a "5."  And I said, "My God, I’ll make a ‘15.’"  I felt awful bad, because I didn’t know how somebody as bright as he was, would be given a "5" in student teaching.  Later, when I got to know Dr. Irish, who was my [supervising teacher when I was a] student teacher on the fourth grade, and I liked her very much, and she was good, and she had given me a "1"....  Anyway, I had the authority to speak to her one time and ask, "How could this man get a ‘5’ and be the valedictorian?"  And she said to me, "Joe, that man, I had to do my duty.  And that man should never be in education."  And I said, "You don’t need to tell me any more.  I don’t need to know any more.  I just felt that somebody was valedictorian, that he’d go over there and make ‘1’s.’"  And that’s what she gave me, was a "1."  But I think the important thing really is that I couldn’t [unclear].  So before I got over there for student teaching, I went over and made a habit of getting over on the playgrounds when they were out.  I went over there and I got to know all those students before I ever got in the teaching class-you know, fourth grade.  And I think it was the greatest thing I ever did, because I got to know them by name; I got to know who was their moms and dads and stuff.  A lot of them I knew, you know, because....  Anyway, it was....  I always felt sorry for that fellow:  How can he be valedictorian and not make it in teacher ed?
M. Rolle:  Let me explain something.  Back then, when we first came here, a "1" was an "A," and a "5" was failing.  Things were reversed a few years later.  So when he said he got a "1" and Ernie Muñoz got "5," [unclear].
J. Rolle:  Well, I was smart to go over there and meet those kids and play with them before I ever went into student teaching.  And as a result I never had a problem.
Runge:  Whatever happened to Ernie?
J. Rolle:  I really don’t know.  But someone had said that he had got a job in education, but I don’t remember where it was, or who it was that told me that now.  But that’s kind of unbelievable, isn’t it?  I mean, just to have the top man in the class, and....  I always felt for him, anyhow.  When I went over there, I thought, "Well, hell, I’ll get a ‘5.’"
Runge:  Yeah, I guess sometimes it’s a case of being cut out for the work, because teaching’s a really challenging and difficult job, and if you’re not cut out for it, it can be even more challenging, I think, for some people.  And perhaps Dr. Irish saw that in Ernie, that as smart as he was, maybe this wasn’t the right....
J. Rolle:  Yeah, I had to have an answer, and that’s why I went to Dr. Irish after a little while.  Her recommendation was, "[He] should never get into education."  And that was good enough, I guess, for me, because she was a wonderful teacher, and all those people over there in the elementary were wonderful teachers.  But, you know....  And I just....
Runge:  I want to jump back up to Flagstaff.  You both arrived here on July 1, 1947, with the Eastburns.  What’s campus like?  It’s almost six years later, since you’ve graduated.  Has campus changed at all, the physical development of campus?  Had any new buildings been built?  Were there more students.  This is just after World War II, the G.I. Bill, men are coming back to school and capitalizing on their G.I. Bill benefits.  What happened to the enrollment here, and how did the physical campus handle the influx of students?
J. Rolle:  Well, it didn’t go up as fast as ASU or Tucson, you know.  But by the same token, they went up very fast.  I think we had some of the finest elementary teachers that you could find anyplace in the country.  They were good, they were firm, but they were....  See, that first building over there on the campus, that was the Education Building.  In the fourth grade, I had one of the classrooms upstairs.  I told you about the teacher and the grade with the "5" for the valedictorian.  That was a sad day.
Runge:  So Tom Bellwood recruited you to come to campus, and the role that he recruited you here for was manager of the bookstore, initially?
J. Rolle:  He told me he wanted to hire me, and I told him that....  I think I’m repeating here.  We had the two boys, and my salary was $500 and he had to meet it.
M. Rolle:  Five thousand, not $500.
J. Rolle:  Five thousand.  And he didn’t meet that.  But anyway, I stayed with what he gave me, and here I am.
Runge:  And over the course of your career at NAU, you had many different positions, so from the bookstore manager, how much longer was it before you became dean of men?
M. Rolle:  Not very long.
Runge:  A couple of years?
M. Rolle:  I don’t think that long.  I took over as bookstore manager when he was dean of men.  Well, in fact, when we moved into the Union Building, and the bookstore was in the Union Building.  So Dr. Eastburn hired me to be manager of the bookstore.
Runge:  After he’d made Joe the dean of men?
M. Rolle:  Yeah.  Then he was dean of students.  Those are the three jobs.  Well, he had an accounting major, and taught accounting.  But I worked for seven years as manager of the bookstore.  And in the meantime, ten years after our second son, we had a daughter.  She lived on the campus.  I think we were there three more years in the Union Building.
But what I wanted to say about the changes, from the time we came here, each president improved the university.  And I tell the alumni now, when they come back, that their degrees are much better than when they got them, because I think each president has improved the university.  And I think Dr. Haeger is doing a great job in improving not just academically-everything.
Runge:  I agree.
M. Rolle:  So the degrees are worth more now than they were when they got them.
J. Rolle:  Dr. Haeger is a good president, and he is a very hard worker.  He is enjoyable to work with, to visit, and be around.  I have said to Marie many times that when I see them, I thank both of them, because they have been, as I mentioned before, very good to both of us.  And you know, we sit in his box for sports.  He doesn’t have to do that, because we have seats, and they’re on the fifth row, on the 50-yard line.  Anyway, he’s a good man, and I think they have the right president now, and I think that he is doing a good job, and he is a very hard worker.  And his wife is also a very intelligent person who meets the students very, very well.  (to wife) Is that about true?
M. Rolle:  Oh yeah.  One thing I wanted to mention, after the bookstore and I resigned, we built a home out in Coconino.  Dr. McDonald called me and asked if I would help him out in career placement for three months.  So I agreed to do that.  Well, the three months turned into nearly twenty years more.  (chuckles)
Runge:  Oh my gosh!
J. Rolle:  Well, you served under presidents, you served under deans, you served under lots of people, to help 'em out, is what it amounted to.
Runge:  We’re down to the last five minutes on this tape, and I thought I’d ask Marie one quick question.  It’s kind of dawning on me that you were a pretty busy person.  While you guys were here, you were a mom, a wife, the manager of the bookstore.  How did you handle all of that, or manage all of that?  Raising kids and....
M. Rolle:  Two honors:  the Associate Women Students, once a year they had what they called Women’s Day.  They chose the outstanding woman student, and the outstanding faculty or staff member.  And I was chosen one year as the outstanding staff.  And the other one was the Annual-both of them were big surprises-when they dedicated the Annual to me.
Runge:  That’s a huge honor.
M. Rolle:  We kept busy.  We still keep busy.
Runge:  Yeah!  I bet!  I just learned a moment ago that you had an interesting hobby, too.  You were a pilot?
M. Rolle:  (laughs)  Ah, yes.  That was in St. Johns.  I mentioned that I moved to St. Johns from Springerville with the Social Security and Welfare.  Well, there wasn’t a great deal to do in St. Johns, and three women lived together, and one started flying, so she talked the other two into it.  So the first one up in the morning got the best flying time, so she had to go back and cook breakfast for the other two.  And then they had a Civil Air Patrol unit.  And so we joined that.  That’s what we did in the evening.
Runge:  My goodness.  It must have been pretty exciting.
M. Rolle:  Well, I enjoyed it.
(discussion of time available on tape)
Runge:  Sure, go ahead, we have a couple more minutes.
J. Rolle:  Marie is being a little bit backward.  I’m going to tell you about her.  She graduated from St. Bonaventure High School in Nebraska.  All the time she was there, she was the valedictorian, she was the queen of everything, and she did this and that.  Marie was a very popular young lady.  When I met her the first time, she gave me the brush-off.  I went to the bookstore where she was working, and I think the important thing is that....  So I asked her for a date and got turned down.  A little while later I asked for another date, and finally had a date with her.  But I want to let you know that this woman is twice as bright as I am, and she’s much smarter than I am.  She has a good head.  And I think when you raise a family, she’s the one that always is the person that takes care of if there’s a problem or something.  She does it because she doesn’t get....  Like me, I might be a little bit mean about it.  Not her.  I’ve never seen that in her.  And so how grateful I am.  (to wife) How many years? Sixty-seven?
M. Rolle:  Sixty-seven.
J. Rolle:  Sixty-seven years.
Runge:  That’s beautiful.
J. Rolle:  And I think the important thing really is that I couldn’t have gotten a better person.
Runge:  Perseverance-having to stick in there and ask her a couple of times to go out.  Yeah.
J. Rolle:  That’s right.
Tape 2
Runge:  We’re with the Rolles, Joe and Marie.  This is Tape 2.  Today is Monday, February 22, [2010].  When we left off, Joe was talking about how fortunate he is to have Marie in his life.  So maybe we can ask Marie a couple of questions at this point.  Let me just get to those.  One of the things I wanted to ask was when you guys were on campus, you were working here, you were a mom, but there were a lot of other faculty wives that were on campus.  Was there a faculty wives organization?
M. Rolle:  There was a faculty wives organization.
Runge:  And were you active in that group?
M. Rolle:  Oh yeah.
Runge:  And what were some of the things....
M. Rolle:  In fact, I was president.
Runge:  I guess you were active then!
M. Rolle:  One year, yeah.  Of course we didn’t have near as many faculty at that time.  In fact, we met in the homes, once a month.  I still have our faculty wives brochure, where all the names were put in.  It was an active organization, and we did end up, I believe, giving a scholarship, faculty wives.  But it was strictly a social organization.
Runge:  I was going to ask if it was social.  But it also sounds like there was....
M. Rolle:  [unclear] most social.
Runge:  But developing a scholarship requires a lot of organization.
M. Rolle:  Well, we had dues, but mostly it was strictly social, once a month.
Runge:  How many members were there approximately?  Was it a pretty small, tight-knit group?  I imagine it just kind of grew over time as the university....
M. Rolle:  I would say there were probably forty members, maybe more.  I’ll look up the latest membership after you leave.
J. Rolle:  It’s now, what, 150 or so, or better?
M. Rolle:  They discontinued it.  And then they merged with the faculty.  How was that? Yeah, because at first it was just the wives of faculty.  And then they merged with the faculty women.  They haven’t been active for several years now.  As we’re getting older,  I’m trying to go through files and find things that we can shred.
J. Rolle:  We were going through papers and I was putting them through the shredder, and several of them she wanted to keep.  I think it was very interesting, some of them.  Do you remember any of those?
M. Rolle:  Not right at the moment.
Runge:  Well, Delia and I work in the Archives, and we don’t want to hear that you guys are shedding anything, because it sounds like it might be really important historical information!  (laughter)
M. Rolle:  You know, I was wondering, we have lots of files on NAU, the alumni, the past presidents group, and lots of things that concern the university.  Some of them are pretty old.  And I also have a couple of files, I think-I gave some of them away-but on University Heights and when this area was developed.  I’ll remember that and see if you want anything before I shred it.
Runge:  Oh, we’d be honored, yeah.
M. Rolle:  Okay.  All right.
Runge:  Marie, you mentioned that each president kind of left their mark here on the campus, and kind of built the campus up a little bit more for the next president.  I was wondering, we’ve talked a little bit about Tom Bellwood.  We mentioned Thomas Tormey.  What about Lacey Eastburn.  What was it like?  You guys both arrived on campus at the same time, so you had this connection already with the Eastburns, but what was it like working with the Eastburns and knowing them?
M. Rolle:  Lacey Eastburn kept this university-wasn’t a university at the time, it was Arizona State Teachers College.  He actually, you know, there was talk about closing it.  He actually-there wasn’t a lot of money, and Dr. Eastburn was very conservative.
J. Rolle:  Very conservative.
Runge:  With the way he ran the university he was conservative?
M. Rolle:  Very, yeah.  In other words, if we had to go down to Phoenix to a meeting, well, the tires on the university cars were not too good.  Usually people had a flat tire going or coming, but we didn’t have I-17 either, and it took us six hours to get to Phoenix.
Runge:  Down 89?
M. Rolle:  Yeah.  We went through Prescott and then....
J. Rolle:  Yarnell.
M. Rolle:  Yarnell and all that, yeah.  Now, there wasn’t a lot of money, and we all, when we had things on campus, the faculty, the executives-what did they call them? the cabinet-was expected to clean rooms and everything else because they were coming.  There were a lot of things going on in the summertime, because they wanted to keep all the dormitories full.  We had a lot of summer activity too.  But each one improved.
J. Rolle:  But if you went to Phoenix, you were expected to get back the same day.
M. Rolle:  Yeah.  Or Tucson.
J. Rolle:  And if you went to Tucson, same thing.  And that’s a pretty good drive down there and back.
Runge:  Yeah, it sounds like it was a much longer drive than it is today.
J. Rolle:  That was part of the rules, you know.
Runge:  We interviewed Sam Borozon, and he talked a little bit about Lacey Eastburn.  I’ve seen a couple of pictures of Lacey Eastburn, and he kind of has this real avuncular, like he’s your uncle, or this really gentlemanly appearance in his image, but Sam Borozon said that he had a very steely gaze, and that if he called you into his office you could just feel his gaze come down on you like a hundred pounds of weight.  I mean, that’s a student’s perspective, but how was he to work with and to socialize with?
M. Rolle:  Sam was a student here.
Runge:  Right.
M. Rolle:  And until he retired from teaching, I think he came back to homecoming and so forth.  Well, there wasn’t the money to do things, and you were expected to, when organizations came, the faculty got in and did the work, because we couldn’t afford to hire it done.  But he kept the school open.
Runge:  Yeah.  I just read about that recently, about it was kind of touch and go.  There were some decision-makers down in Phoenix that were questioning why there’s a teachers or normal school in Tempe, and one up in Flagstaff, "Why do we need two?"  It was fairly challenging.
M. Rolle:  Well actually, when we came here, ASU and ASTC were the rivals.  I mean, the University of Arizona was the top dog.  But I always credited Luke Air Force Base with the growth at ASU because so many people from all over the country during World War II were stationed at Luke Air Force Base, and they liked the weather, and they liked everything about it, and came out and registered at ASU, which at the time was ASU at Tempe.  At the time, ASC, Flagstaff.  So we were the rivals.  And as you know, it was the students from ASU who came up and stole the gold axe from the office, because we were their rivals.  But that’s all changed.
Runge:  Yeah.  We got the axe back.  It’s under lock and key now, in case any of those ASU....
J. Rolle:  [unclear] haircut.
Runge:  Yeah!  (laughs)  Speaking of Sam, when we interviewed him he spoke so highly of the both of you.  You made a huge impression on Sam, and were really kind of surrogate parents for Sam.  I know that he really appreciated everything that you guys did for him.  One of the stories that he mentioned took place in 1956.  According to Sam, there was a rumor around campus that you guys might be leaving Flagstaff, that you were tempted with another job or another opportunity someplace, and that the students quickly organized themselves and tapped you as homecoming dedicatee.  I was just wondering if you guys could elaborate on that, what was happening in 1956 in your lives?
M. Rolle:  Well, I always told-Joe was offered several jobs while he was dean of students.  And I told him, "You know, there are other schools besides Flagstaff."  And he would go so far in checking out the job, and when it was offered to him he’d turn it down because he didn’t want to leave Flagstaff and ASC.
Runge:  Yeah, when you find someplace that’s so nice, you can be tempted, but....
M. Rolle:  It was a great place to raise a family.  They had the best of-we always knew where they were, knew their friends, and they had the university for the social things and art and music.  And our schools turned out some very fine people-I mean our public schools.  And we didn’t feel that any other place was as good, I guess.  But I could never get Joe to even consider moving.  I would have moved.
Runge:  You would have?
M. Rolle:  Well, I think I would have.  (laughs)  I guess if I’d really wanted to, I would have talked harder.
Runge:  So were any of those opportunities-you really were weighing them pretty heavily?
M. Rolle:  Well, one was the university down at-not in Bisbee, but in....
J. Rolle:  Cochise County.
M. Rolle:  Yeah.  What is that?  Now I’ve even forgotten what they call it.
Runge:  Is it a community college?
J. Rolle:  It amounts to a community college, yeah.
M. Rolle:  I thought that was a four-year now.  It started out as a two-year.  Anyhow, we did go down and check that out.  When we got back and they sent him a telegram that he’d been hired, he turned it down.  And there were different things:  one in California.  I’ve even forgotten....  But different times he would be invited to apply.
J. Rolle:  Yuma.
Runge:  Did the presidents of the college know that you were being courted by these other colleges and universities?
J. Rolle:  Uh-uh.
Runge:  No?
M. Rolle:  Uh-huh.  No.  Dr. Walkup came the year after we came.  And of course he came as College of Education, and he worked under Dr. Eastburn.  And then when Dr. Eastburn died, Dr. Walkup was appointed.  No, they weren’t aware of it.  Joe spent four summers back at Columbia University, and has a degree from Columbia.
Runge:  Excellent.
M. Rolle:  And I stayed here with the two boys and ran the bookstore.
Runge:  During the summer.
J. Rolle:  Yeah.
Runge:  So you mentioned Larry Walkup.  Larry Walkup is probably one of....  Well, he was the longest-tenured president at Northern Arizona University, and the second-longest-tenured of any college or university in America.
M. Rolle:  Really?
Runge:  Yes.
M. Rolle:  Twenty years, wasn’t it?
Runge:  I think twenty, twenty-two years or something.
M. Rolle:  Well, let’s see....
D. Muñoz:  ’57 to ’71.
M. Rolle:  He wasn’t president twenty years.  They came in ’48, we came in ’47.  And then he retired....
D. Muñoz:  ’79.
Runge:  What was it like....  Lacey Eastburn actually passed away while he was still president, and Larry Walkup took over.  One of the things I read about Larry Walkup was that when he first came to Flagstaff, he was impressed with the people, the faculty-the people that worked at Arizona State College-and also the curriculum, but he wasn’t that impressed with the campus itself.
M. Rolle:  Yeah.
Runge:  And probably one of the legacies of Larry Walkup was the physical development of the campus.  It went from basically what we now know as North Campus, to Central and then all the way down into South Campus.  I was wondering if I could ask you guys a couple questions about that.  He immediately starts building-or, well, I guess Lacey Eastburn had started or got the money for what’s now the Eastburn Educational Building.  But Larry sees the construction through that.  And I was wondering what it was like working with Dr. Walkup as he’s developing the campus so rapidly.  I mean, these were pretty... Even though it was twenty-two years, that’s an enormous amount of change in a relatively short period of time.  I was wondering what it was like working with Dr. Walkup during this pivotal time in the university’s development.
J. Rolle:  Over by the old stadium, you’re going to see one of the most beautiful buildings in the state of Arizona, when that is built over there.  So we’re going to have a real modern building.  You know, we have one down here on the south entrance.  That’s a very special building down there.  We don’t have to be the low man on the totem pole.  I hope you’re still around, both of you, when that new building down there on the old football field is down there, when that is up.  The students, the community, and the state will be very, very happy to see such a nice building going up on the campus.  Because I think too often that with Walkup, I think he got a little tight at times, and he’d be out there walking about where to put a building.  You know, on some of the buildings the board of regents said to him, "Walkup, how you gonna pay for all these things?"  And he would say, "The bookstore, the mail room, the food service...."
M. Rolle:  "Coke machines."
J. Rolle:  "Coke machines, and then the laundry machines in the dorms."  And he had enough cash there to go for the Sky Dome.  And they said, "How you gonna pay for this?"  And he said, "Well..."  He mentioned all these things.  Then the regents had to go look at those accounts and see what they had.  Well, we had built up a lot of that, Marie and I, with the bookstore, mail room, and all these places had been responsible for a lot of that money, you know.  But he was very proud of saying, "We have it."  But you know, Walkup used to go out there in the mornings on the weekend and he would walk some of those areas about where he’d want to put a building up, you see.
M. Rolle:  We were good friends to the Walkups from the time they came, until they retired.  Well, we still are with Lucy, his wife.
Runge:  I heard that he was pretty hands-on in the development.  You mentioned that he would walk around campus looking for the next spot to place a building.
J. Rolle:  That’s right.
Runge:  Even when the buildings were being constructed, I know that he kind of exercised a little bit, he’d walk around the campus.  But when he’d walk around the campus, he’d start asking questions of the contractors and the subcontractors, like, "Why are you doing this?" always with the eye to improve the development or the construction of the next building or buildings that he was about to embark upon.  Kind of an amazing guy, because from what I understand he was very hands-on in all aspects of the college and university from hiring-he was the last piece of the interviewing process, I think, for a very long time-but actually going out and talking with the contractors and the subcontractors of this building.  And I just wondered, how did he run the university?  There were only twenty-four hours in a day, and it seems like he was a pretty busy man.
J. Rolle:  Well, he did put up the most buildings of a president, and I think that he deserves credit for that.  But he also just walked to talk about the potential of a building going there.  And he was pretty good about that, in the layout of the ground and stuff.  And you can see that he’s the president that put up the most buildings on campus, and as a result, I think he’s put up some pretty good buildings.  But I’m telling you that when that building is done over there....
Runge:  The Health and Wellness?
J. Rolle:  On South Campus over there, the old football field, you’re going to be real proud of that.
Runge:  I’ve seen a few models, architectural models of the building, and it looks like it’s going to be incredibly impressive, state of the art.
J. Rolle:  Yeah, and incredible piece.
Runge:  You know what I was wondering about Dr. Walkup is everyone remembers the buildings that he built, but how about the land?  How did he acquire the land?
J. Rolle:  Well they had most of it.
Runge:  Did they really?
J. Rolle:  Oh yeah.
Runge:  The college owned a lot of the land already?
J. Rolle:  Yeah.
M. Rolle:  They still have a lot.
Runge:  That’s undeveloped?
J. Rolle:  Uh-huh.
Runge:  Yeah.  Let me see, what else?  You mentioned when Dr. Walkup would speak with the legislators and ABOR, that he convinced them he had enough money on campus, but it required a bit of diplomacy to build these buildings.  It must have felt that he was constantly going down and asking to build another building with each passing year, because it’s a pretty consistent pattern:  there were, I think, over thirty buildings constructed during his tenure, and he was only here for twenty-two years, so that’s more than a building a year.  And how did that work, did you go down with him to talk with ABOR?
J. Rolle:  The important thing really is to separate the two.  There was such a thing as local funds versus the state funds.  And everything that came out of the state came through the legislature down there.  Well, the local funds, one time when he was asked how he’s gonna build that dome, they asked him exactly, "Lawrence, how do you intend to build this building?" he said, "Mailroom, housing, food service, dormitories and all that."  His local funds were probably greater than any of the three universities’.  That local fund means that its dormitories are not state funds.  And he had a great sum.  When he told them he was gonna get local funds, and then he gave them the amounts and stuff, then they were convinced, you see.  He wanted to be called "the builder."  That was one of his desires, that he would be called the builder of the campus buildings.  And I think he would have loved to have had that name.  And I think it could be said that’s true.  But those local funds, I’ll tell you, because Marie and I were some of the people that helped make some of those local funds, you know.  The legislature was just stymied when he said he had the local funds to build the dome.  And they let him proceed then. But until then, they wanted to know where that money was coming from, because they probably didn’t have to put it up, you know.  Anyway, he was a sharp dealer.  He got his dollar’s worth every time he added a building.  He got the full dollar.  And that’s the important thing, that you do it, because I think some of the construction that went on during some periods of that time, they cut back as much as they could to get the building [costs] down, and [the building itself] up and up and gone, you know.  But I think that they got their dollar’s worth, and still do.  When this thing goes up, remember what Joe told you.
Runge:  It’s gonna be the new centerpiece or the jewel of the campus, yeah.
J. Rolle:  Yup, and the other one’s gonna be two of the finest buildings on the campus.  I think we need some of those.  It’s not because we’re the poor guys up here or somethin’-we’re not that.  We should have the same thing as the other two universities-nice-looking buildings.  If you go on the Tempe and Tucson campus, it’s kind of a pleasure to see the very, very nice buildings.  Why should we be any different?
Runge:  I agree.
J. Rolle:  Isn’t that right, Cathy?
Cathy:  Yes.
M. Rolle:  I think we have the most beautiful of the three campuses.
Cathy:  I do too.
Runge:  I agree.  It’s a special place.  I want to shift gears from the physical campus to some of the social and cultural things that happened during your time at NAU.  The 1960s were kind of a pivotal time in America.  There were a lot of changes, starting off with the election and then eventual assassination of John F. Kennedy, all the way through to the Vietnam War.  I was wondering how those national and international events kind of affected campus, or manifested themselves on campus.  Was there very much protesting going on during Vietnam?  No?
M. Rolle:  There was some protesting, let’s see, just the one summer, I think it was, during the summer.  But on the whole, our students didn’t protest, but there was one night I remember that the students protested.  Of course in food and stuff, there was always-not always, but oftentimes they complained about the food.  When they did, we would go, unannounced, for dinner or lunch and so forth, to check, because that was one of the areas that came under [Joe].  He’d get the students who were complaining, and the manager of the food service, and we’d go unannounced, purposely.
J. Rolle:  I always met the students that came and complained, and I said, "Okay, I want you to join me personally, and we’ll go over and we’ll have the head person, and each of you tell him exactly what it is you don’t like."  And we would spend sometimes a couple of hours.  They would at least have their chance to do that, you see.  And then every once in a while I would say to Marie, "Let’s go have a meal over there," because I wanted to follow up a little bit, so that if they came back, then I would have some kind of an answer as to what the meal was like on at least that one occasion, you see.  But we didn’t go very often.  I think it was taking the students there, and talking directly with him and telling him exactly what the problems were-that was necessary, I think.  And I think the kids did a nice job.  They weren’t ugly, they did a nice job, just like Lumberjacks.  They did a good job in what they had to say.  It was probably good for the food service, you see.  But I think that generally speaking, starting with Mother Hanley, that the food service has always been ... I don’t want to use the word passable, but I want to say it’s above that.  Mother Hanley delighted in paying the cooks much higher salaries than they could get any place in town at any restaurant.  And that was one of her real strong points, because if she had that authority to say, "This is not the kind of money that we want to pay for them.  We want to pay a salary that will keep 'em here for a while."  I think the food service was good.
M. Rolle:  We had the finest music department in the state.  We had the finest education department in the state.  And we put out the best teachers.  When I was in career placement and we had all the businesses coming in, and our college of business, I compared our students with any, anywhere in the state.
(recording turned off and on)
Runge:  We talked a little bit about some social unrest in America, and how that maybe manifested itself on campus, but now I want to talk a little bit about, or ask you, Joe, you’re a real people person, and I can tell you were both very fond of the students.  Ultimately, you were part of the administration of the university and the college.  I just want to talk about that fine line that you guys probably had to walk, caring for the students, but also knowing at the same time that you were carrying out the mission of the university.  That must have been difficult at times, especially as the university began to grow.  It went from a college, about 1,000 students, to what we’re now at, 16,000, but I’m sure it was closer to 10,000 or 11,000 during the tail end of Dr. Walkup’s tenure as president.  I was wondering how you guys managed to balance the demands of administration with the needs of the students.
J. Rolle:  I think that basically we were very fortunate, because I think so many people that chose this university over the other two, simply because they thought it’s gonna be a little smaller and be better, the teachers will have the real love for them, help them get their degrees, and this and that.  I think that the students that came, I think were not from wealthy families.  There were some, you know.  What I guess I’m trying to say is that many of them, I think, it takes a little doing when your dad might be working in the mines, and then the food costs and everything else.  I never believed that I would have a doctorate from Columbia University.  I never believed that I’d have a doctorate from NAU.  Never in my life did I ever think that I would have those two degrees.  And I think the important thing really is that I think that this is why I think some students come here, because if they’re coming from a mining camp-and we have lots of 'em here in Arizona-that to come up with the fees is not easy.  But they feel like they can come here, and they can work to help Mom and Dad with the fund that they’re puttin’ through.  And not only help Mom and Dad, but help themselves in trying to help pay for some of the bills.  Because education is not cheap.  Well, you know, I went back to Columbia University, New York, and got a doctor’s degree.  I’ll show you that.
M. Rolle:  [inaudible]
J. Rolle:  First of all, that I could do it academically.  (laughs)
Cathy:  But you got it done.
J. Rolle:  She’ll be interested in knowing that my roommate at Columbia University was Francis Gavern [phonetic], another wonderful fellow, good ol’ Irishman.  Francis and I roomed at Columbia.  Wonderful person.  Unfortunately, he’s gone.  But I think that I never dreamed I’d have those degrees.
M. Rolle:  In regard to the question you asked, as a dean’s wife, I tried never to interfere.  I mean, a lot of things I had to keep inside because you just didn’t really express yourself.  And I think Lucy found this too, because we’ve kind of laughed since that time, while she was the president’s wife I know that she didn’t always agree with a lot of things.  There were things I didn’t necessarily agree with, but I couldn’t say anything.
J. Rolle:  When I was at Columbia, I sent a research paper or something that had to be done, to her.  And it always came back typed perfect, and this and that.  She should have half the degree, and I admit that, and I admit it very readily because she made it just a little bit easier.  But a whole lot easier as far as I was concerned.  When you get to a place like Columbia, they’re pretty fussy about....  And yet, I found-Minnie Roseberry taught a class here in adolescent psychology.  I sat in a couple of times, but the head gal that has been at Columbia University for a long time....
M. Rolle:  Ruth Strang.
J. Rolle:  ... said that my teacher here was as good or better than that at Columbia.  So you know, you see you can do a lot of comparing.  The nice thing about it is Francis and I roomed together, and all we had to do is go down maybe 200 steps, and every morning we’d go to the Catholic church for communion.  Then when we used to go down to....
M. Rolle:  Patty’s Clam House.  (laughter)
J. Rolle:  No.  We’d go to Patty’s Clam House, we liked that, boy that was a good place, down in the middle of New York.  Now, that was a good place to go!  But the place I want to talk about is in Columbia University, it’s 121st Street.  And the place down below is supposedly the bad people.  When we used to go down there, they used to always just say, "When are the Arizona boys coming?"  When we’d get there, they’d say, "Well, we wondered when you were coming."  And they were very nice.  And we would go into the same market all the time. I don’t know, it just....  I just feel so privileged that the things that Flagstaff, for me, was from Day One, all I could ever expect, what they did for me.  And you know, I’m thankful.  And I think you know that a lot of times there are times, I’m sure, that faculty get a little bit put out, and maybe get a little sharp.  But by the same token, I never had that experience.  And I didn’t have it at Columbia, and I didn’t have it at....  See, Ruth Strang is probably the most outstanding woman in counseling and guidance, and she was my professor all the time.  The lady had an apartment down at 69th Street in New York, and Columbia is on 121st.  And she would walk every day, to Columbia-from her home to Columbia University-from Columbia University back to her apartment.  And she was about sixty-some years old when this all occurred.  How can you be that fortunate, to have those kind of people in your life?  It sounds like I’m trying to be a little bit smart.  I’m not trying to be smart at all.  I’m just trying to say how lucky can you really be, to be able to work with some of those people who have your interests, who have your love and everything else.  I’m thankful.  You can’t be anything but thankful, when all the good things happen for you.  And if you are, then you’re not appreciative of your friends, all of them.  So I don’t know, but....  I don’t know if we just discouraged you, or....
Runge:  Not at all.  Not at all.
J. Rolle:  I get up every morning....  Marie will tell you-when she gets to her side of the bed, I go over and thank her and hope she has a good night.  Then the next morning I get up, give her a kiss, and ask her if she had a good night.  And sometimes she doesn’t.  But most of the times, it’s pretty good.  And so [unclear] I guess my Catholic religion, and my love of family, both our families, that we have each other, you know.  You know, that’s a lot of years, sixty-seven years, and I love her just as much as I did the first day when I asked her for a date and she said no.  Anyway, I don’t know.  I thank the good Lord, and I thank her because she has been my person that has steered me.  When I have been wrong, she has told me.  And I have never found a time when she has said something like that, that I didn’t deserve it, or it shouldn’t have happened.  So that lady....
Runge:  Very special.
J. Rolle:  I want both of us to live as long as we can.  You know, I’m gettin’ up into age.  Soon I’ll be ninety-three-I’m ninety-two now.  I’ve had open-heart surgery, I’ve had some surgeries and stuff.  You can’t get any more thankful than that.  Yes, you can be, but it’s somethin’. As soon as we get through, I want to take you upstairs for a couple of minutes because we have stuff there that I think you would be interested in, the both of you.  And I want to take a few minutes there, just with you, so whenever you say it’s....
Runge:  Okay.  Just a couple more questions.  You guys worked and lived on the university for about forty years, and you’ve been affiliated with the university for over sixty years.  What are some of your fondest memories of the university over that span of time?
M. Rolle:  Well, they’re all fond memories.  I don’t know of any time that we’ve been unhappy here.  Everything just worked out.  Of course I’m a great believer in attitude.  You can be happy, or you can be miserable.  And with the right attitude, why not be happy?
J. Rolle:  You know, I think that a couple or three occasions that we had an opportunity to move, that in our hearts we just couldn’t move.
Runge:  Kind of related:  Joe, you came here in 1937, but you came back in ’47.  It’s 2010, the campus looks so different, when you guys walk on campus today, what do you think about as you’re walking through campus?
M. Rolle:  I get lost!
Runge:  Yeah!  Especially with the construction.
M. Rolle:  I turn down one street, and lo and behold it’s a ... what do they call them?
Cathy:  One way?
Runge:  A cul-de-sac?
M. Rolle:  Yeah.  Then you have to turn around and find out how to get out.  Having lived there for thirteen years, there’s so many one-way streets, and everything is so changed.  But it’s all an improvement.
J. Rolle:  Sometimes I have to say to her, "I think you want to go this way, don’t you?"  We get down there in some of those places where they’re doing construction and all, [unclear] you can’t go in there.
M. Rolle:  Well, if you have a positive attitude, you can be happy.
Runge:  Yeah.
J. Rolle:  What do you do with this now?
Runge:  The oral history interviews?  What we do with them, we put them on the Colorado Plateau Digital Archives, which is affiliated with the library, and people will be able to view the interview, and use it for research.  If anyone’s doing research on you guys, or just kind of curious about the university or the development of the university, they could search through the transcript or listen to the interview and learn more about the university.  So we’ll make this available to everybody, because it’ll be on the Internet.  The digital archives is on the Internet.
J. Rolle:  That’s awfully nice.
Runge:  Yeah.  It’ll be really wonderful.  And we’ve done some other interviews:  We’ve done Sam Borozon, and we have a few others in mind too. I just have one more question for you guys.  What do you  feel the Rolle legacy is at NAU?
M. Rolle:  Well, I really don’t know what sort of a legacy we leave.  I just know we have no negative thoughts about it, and we worked hard, and there was no such thing as a forty-hour work week.  You worked 'til you got your job done.  It was never just forty hours.  Of course when we lived on campus, it was seven days, twenty-four hours.
J. Rolle:  Well, the thing about it is we lived on campus so long that any problem always came to us first.  Then it was our duty to fix something, do something, just whatever needed to be done.  Maybe no lights for a long time, and we would have to find out.  But I think that we always tried to take care of any problem that was on the campus.  I told Walkup when he was thinking about moving on the campus that he was not going to like it, "Because they’ll go to you instead of me.  I’d like that, but...."  He said, "I’ll send them to you," because any problem had to come to us.  That didn’t have to, but it did, because they knew that we would take it up and do what we had to do to try to fix something, or "How much longer is it going to be for these lights to be out?  How much longer is the gas going to be off, and it’s cold in winter." I think we enjoyed doing what we did, as we look back and see what we did and what we didn’t do.  But there’s not too much we didn’t do.  I think there were times that [unclear] that take a [unclear] and a necktie and white shirt, and she would take it to the office because she told the young man before that he was going to be interviewing for a job, and that he had to have a necktie and a suit-she told him.  So we had that on many occasions.  It was just a delightful thing to do, because the kid had to make the impression, you know.  And it worked out for us.  And our students were not very....  They would do that, or somebody would tell them that they [hurt?], maybe that I might let one of 'em use one of my suits and necktie and stuff, and make an impression and stuff.  But it was those kind of things that I think it was just part of the job.  It wasn’t something that we were asked to do, it was just something that we felt in our hearts that we wanted to help every student that we could.  I couldn’t be any happier than if I had gone to Columbia, ASU, U. of A., community college or something.  I got the help right here, and never could I be negative about how we both feel about this university.  We feel like that we have done our jobs, and that that’s the important thing, that we have done them, and we have done them well, and we have done them without any pressure.
M. Rolle:  No regrets.
J. Rolle:  We’re thankful.  So, you know, it’s awful nice of you people to do this, because you get a better feeling of why we were here so long.  And you know, I guess we could have moved to Phoenix or Tucson or someplace, or down to my old hometown of Bisbee-which she wouldn’t go....  (laughter)  I just thank the good Lord, and I thank the university, and I thank that all the people, all of them, that were nice to both of us.  And to me, that is a pretty good life.
Runge:  Well, I’ll tell you, we’re grateful for you guys giving us this opportunity to interview you and ask you all these questions.  I was wondering, as we kind of wrap it up, if there’s anything that we didn’t ask, that you guys want to kind of add or comment on, about your experience at NAU.
J. Rolle:  You act like you have something to say.
M. Rolle:  No, I was thinking when you were talking about Bisbee-you know, we’ve had a lot of students from Bisbee, and I learned a long time ago that when he said Bisbee [unclear].  (laughter)  He still does.  (laughter)
J. Rolle:  I’ve often said sometime....  Well, I went down and gave a lecture, and I’d like to go again, because I think I got a little more melancholy than I used to be, and I’d like to go down and talk to the students.  I think I would have a message for them.
M. Rolle:  Down to Bisbee?
J. Rolle:  Yeah.
M. Rolle:  He gave the....  When he was out of high school twenty-five years, he gave the graduation address to Bisbee High School.  And of course he told them he never thought he’d be invited (laughter) to give the graduation address.
J. Rolle:  It’s a good school down there, you know.  Anyway....
M. Rolle:  Well, we appreciate you coming.
Runge:  Thank you so much.  Yeah.
M. Rolle:  We’ll probably think of several things tonight!
Runge:  Could have, would have, should have.
M. Rolle:  That we should have said.
Runge:  Well, thank you, and if there is anything that you think of that you want to add, we’d be happy to come back any time.
J. Rolle:  I think the important thing really is that with us yakking-me especially, I guess-I talked more than Marie did.  I apologize for that to Marie, and to you.  Nice meeting you both.
D. Muñoz:  Nice meeting you.
Runge:  Yeah.
J. Rolle:  It’s a nice thing for you to do, and we appreciate the time.  And not only the time, but the courtesy from both of you.  Maybe we’re better people for yakkin’.
Runge:  Well thank you so much.