Oral history interview with Jose V. Morales, February 19, 1997.

              JOSE V. MORALES INTERVIEW
Los Recuerdos Oral History Project
Interview 68-9
[All names are spelled phonetically (Tr.)]
[BEGIN SIDE 1]
On today's interview on today's date, which is February 19, 1997. The time is 2:05 here at the Cobalt Room at Cline Library, Northern Arizona University.
Muñoz: I'm going to start with introducing you again with your name and address.
Morales: Jose Morales, 122 East Butler.
Muñoz: And your date of birth?
Morales: March 10, 1910.
Muñoz: Okay, and who were your parents, Mr. Morales?
Morales: My parents were __________ Jose Morales and her name was Cayatana. You want her maiden name or whatever?
Muñoz: You gave me that with the other form, but sure, you can give me her maiden name. Cayatana qué?
Morales: Her middle name was Villa ____, V I L L A double A, A double R, O E L. It's long!
Muñoz: Yeah, it is long! You were saying they didn't come to Flagstaff?
Morales: No, my mother died in El Paso, then I came to live here in Flagstaff.
Muñoz: Who did you come to live with?
Morales: My uncle, my mother's sister. I don't know if you know the Montoyas.
Muñoz: I know some Montoyas.
Morales: The mother was married to Aurelia Manuel Vialma.
Muñoz: I bet I do know who they were.
Morales: Yeah. These Montoyas, she was my mother's sister, and I came to live here with them.
Muñoz: Okay. And how old were you then when you came to live with them?
Morales: Nine years old.
Muñoz: So you've seen Flagstaff for a long time, huh?
Morales: Yeah. (laughter)
Muñoz: Okay, we'll go back in. What do you remember in your childhood days as you were growing up here in Flagstaff?
Morales: Well, the first place, I started going to the training school, right here - you know, the training school.
Muñoz: Yeah.
Morales: And then from there I moved to St. Anthony.
Muñoz: How far did the training school go to, in grades? Sixth grade?
Morales: Well, they started that in 1922. We used to go to the old building. That was the elementary school, the old building. And then they built this building over here on Dupont. You know that building right there?
Muñoz: Audrey Auditorium?
Morales: Where Dupont ends. I started there. From there, in 1922, my uncle didn't like the idea of the school there, so he sent us to -I say he did -my cousin and I, to St. Anthony School.
Muñoz: So he just pulled you out of that training school and sent you to St. Anthony's. Where did you live at that time? Where was your house at here in Flagstaff, what neighborhood?
Morales: Right there on Agasi, right there by the River Flag. In fact, it was the same block, 418. It's the same block where you live.
Muñoz: Okay, yeah. I'm thinking, was it the site where the Velascos live?
Morales: Yeah.
Muñoz: On that side, where the Velascos live. Okay, so I know where it's at. So was there quite a bit of people living around there at the time? The houses, were they built already?
Morales: Well, Miss Nevarres, and Razos, familia Razos, and your grandparents.
Muñoz: The Sanchezes.
Morales: And next to them was a lady by the name of Carmen Cruz, right there.
Muñoz: Next door to it?
Morales: Next door to it. And then Ramon LaGospi, that was the next one there.
Muñoz: I remember the names, yeah.
Morales: Your grandparents, this Carmen, and then this LaGospi.
Muñoz: So what was the neighborhood like at that time when you were growing up? Was it pretty busy?
Morales: Well, what happened then, all of these people used to work for the Flagstaff Lumber Company. That was Flagstaff Lumber Company, and this was Arizona Lumber and Timber.
Muñoz: Where the Holiday Inn is.
Morales: So your grandpa was working for Flagstaff Lumber Company -him and your Uncle Geronimo.
Muñoz: Oh, yeah!
Morales: Yeah, he was working there, too. But then they shut that mill down, and then it started over here, Arizona Lumber and Timber Company. And then the Arizona Lumber and Timber Company changed to when Mr. Dolen took over. Then in 1941, the Saginaw-Manistee Lumber Company, they took over. And then I was working there at the powerplant. By that time I was working at the powerplant. Over here, I started working in the box factory. That was Dolen's.
Muñoz: Oh, okay, so you built boxes?
Morales: Yeah, they used to make boxes there, wood boxes.
Muñoz: And where was that located at?
Morales: Right here where they shut this mill down.
Muñoz: Oh, okay.
Morales: That's the same place. This here was over here, and the Arizona Lumber and Timber Company was over there by 66.
Muñoz: Okay, and you were saying you went to the training school. You said you came at nine years of age, so right away you went into the training school?
Morales: Yeah, right away, I went to school, to elementary, here, training school.
Muñoz: And what was that like?
Morales: Well, in the first place, my uncle didn't like that. He said we weren't learning nothing. "I'm going to send you to the other school, Catholic school." I knew a lot of kids, I guess I'm about one of the only ones that's living right now -they're all dead.
Muñoz: Can you imagine that? You've done so well for yourself. So you went to St. Anthony's School.
Morales: St. Anthony.
Muñoz: What was it that your uncle didn't like [about] the training school, do you remember?
Morales: Well, he said we didn't learn anything. So he said, "You're going over there." And in fact, that's where I know now. I learned that in St. Anthony School. They were pretty strict over there.
Muñoz: They were, huh? Were they all nuns?
Morales: Nuns, yeah.
Muñoz: At that time did you see or feel discrimination?
Morales: No, no. Well, of course they had a little discrimination with Spanish- speaking Spanish people. Yeah, I noticed, they used to.
Muñoz: When you started going to St. Anthony's, that would be what grade, first grade?
Morales: I started over there, third grade.
Muñoz: And you already knew English by then?
Morales: Yeah.
Muñoz: That's good.
Morales: But the only thing, I didn't attend too much school because my uncle died, and then I had to go to work. When I was fifteen years old, I had to start working.
Muñoz: And then you started working at the sawmills then?
Morales: Yeah, right then is when I started over here at the box factory. That's where they used to have the Southwest. Well, in fact, your father was working there.
Muñoz: Yeah, at Southwest.
Morales: He died when he was working there, didn't he?
Muñoz: Yes, he did. Okay, the types of activities that you remember you did when you were young? Like dances or fiestas, celebrations? What do you remember of that when you were growing up? Were there a lot of dances, bailes, in Flagstaff then?
Morales: No, they had a little salon revolucion San Francisco, right there where they have these bicycle -they used to have dances right there.
Muñoz: That was a pool hall, too, huh? Charlie Scoto's?
Morales: Yeah, Charlie Scoto was over here where they have this climbing.... That was Scoto's.
Muñoz: Now I remember, the Liberty Pool Hall.
Morales: Yeah, that was the Scoto's. But the one over here was de Miguel.
Muñoz: Oh, de Miguel.
Morales: De Miguel. He was the one that had that [fence?], dances, pool hall and all.
Muñoz: So those are the only type of things you remember. Did you attend dances then?
Morales: Well (chuckles), in the first place, I wasn't much of a dancer. I didn't like it in the first place. I used to go up there and pass the time, but....
Muñoz: No dancing, huh? And movies?
Morales: The Orpheum, that was all. The Orpheum was all the theater.
Muñoz: What type of fiestas did they celebrate then?
Morales: Well, they used to have some plays in school, and all these old actors, we used to see them in the Orpheum Theater. But there wasn't much. In the first place, I guess, yeah, that was the only theater, the Orpheum. Now I think there are about thirty!
Muñoz: There's quite a bit, huh? Within the community, do you remember any celebrations within the Hispanos?
Morales: Well, there used to be some people here, like Juarez and Vasquez -they used to celebrate the Sixteenth of September, Cinco de Mayo.
Muñoz: Did they have parades or anything like that?
Morales: Oh, yeah, they'd have a parade.
Muñoz: So that was pretty big then, huh?
Morales: Yeah. In the first place, San Francisco Street was nothing but a dirt road. That was 1919 when I first started here.
Muñoz: And was there many buildings down that road, then, do you remember?
Morales: No. In fact, ________, where they used to have the store, it wasn't there.
Muñoz: Okay.
Morales: It wasn't there. And like this Rancho Grande, they had a little old house right there. They used to play billiards and all this.
Muñoz: Do you remember the Lunas that lived on that street, too?
Morales: Oh, yeah, Joe Luna. Oh, yeah, I knew the Lunas.
Muñoz: Those homes were there then, too?
Morales: Oh yeah, those homes were there, yeah.
Muñoz: They were already built, huh?
Morales: Yeah. Yeah, the Lunas, I knew them.
Muñoz: So the Mirs' tienda wasn't there, the store for the Mirs wasn't there yet?
Morales: The Mirs, over here on Santa Fe, they had a store, grocery store, and then he built that old building now. He changed from Santa Fe and opened a grocery store right there.
Muñoz: So that was the neighborhood grocery store then, huh?
Morales: It was. He was the one that built that building.
Muñoz: The church you attended, was that Nativity when you were growing up?
Morales: No, no.
Muñoz: You didn't attend Nativity?
Morales: No, it was -the one that's Nativity now?
Muñoz: Yeah, what church did you attend then when you were growing up?
Morales: Well, right there they had this.... What do you call this where I mentioned the church, St. Anthony?
Muñoz: Yeah, St. Anthony.
Morales: Well, the school was St. Anthony School. The church was in front, and in the back, that was an old building that's not there anymore. They tore all that down and what they have over there is all new.
Muñoz: You're saying that was the church, then?
Morales: Yeah, the church and the school.
Muñoz: Okay, then Nativity wasn't up yet?
Morales: Oh, no.
Muñoz: So when they built that church, did you attend it?
Morales: No, because I went to California, when I came back they had the Guadalupe.
Muñoz: Oh, they had already Guadalupe.
Morales: So then from there on I started going to Guadalupe.
Muñoz: My question here is based on celebrating. How did you recognize weddings? Were they a big thing then when you were growing up, big bailes and _______.
Morales: Yeah, they had bailes there, and like those Lunas and Vasquezes and all those people.
Muñoz: And baptismals were the same?
Morales: Yeah, same there.
Muñoz: And funerals. How did you recognize them? I remember my mom saying they used to hold a vigil at home, el rosario, it was at la casa.
Morales: Oh, yeah.
Muñoz: That was customary, huh?
Morales: Yeah, that was customary.
Muñoz: They did that, and then they would take the body, and then the next day they buried 'em. That's changed, too, hasn't it? Okay, my question on foods. What was prepared when you were growing up during the Depression time, too, here in Flagstaff?
Morales: Yeah, yeah, Depression.
Muñoz: What was that like?
Morales: Well, it was pretty hard.
Muñoz: I bet.
Morales: People would go out there on the ranches, pick beans, potatoes and all that, because the mill was down. They shut that place down during the Depression. That was 1932.
Muñoz: So people had to find whatever they could.
Morales: Oh, yeah, and work here and there. Of course, I was lucky, because I was working in the powerplant, and they had to keep that powerplant, for the fire insurance, they had to have steam, a watchman. And we used to work there. The Mallordas were the ones that were the, attended the powerplant there.
Muñoz: And the powerplant, what was the name of the powerplant? Just "the powerplant"?
Morales: Well, they had boilers, steam. Everything was running with steam, all ____ and cordless engines. But then the Saginaw took over, they were more modern, and instead of this cordless engines, they had turbines, like, so everything was running with electricity.
Muñoz: Oh, interesting. So let's go back to when you were working at that powerplant and fueling it up. I understand that at one time people would chop wood and bring wood to the powerplant.
Morales: Yeah, wood and sawdust. That was the fuel there, yeah. Used to run with sawdust, wood, that's all. There was no such thing as oil or gas -nothing like that.
Muñoz: Yeah. So it was based on wood.
Morales: Yeah, wood.
Muñoz: So people would, whatever they had, would be wagons and horses that pulled the wood?
Morales: Yeah. So that's the way I had to keep the steam up. That was the way the turbines would run.
Muñoz: So that was an all-night job.
Morales: Oh, yeah.
Muñoz: Gee, that was a lot of work.
Morales: Ohhhh!
Muñoz: Were there quite a bit of people employed there then?
Morales: Well, all together, I think there were a little over a hundred, including the forest and all that.
Muñoz: During the Depression and the scarcity of food, how was food brought to the table? By working you would have to....
Morales: Oh, yeah, by working. They had this credit with Babbitts, and they used to have a grocery store there by the.... There was no such thing like Penney's -well, they had a J.C. Penney, Babbitts' and Nackerds'.
Muñoz: They had a store, too, Nackerds did?
Morales: Oh, yeah, Nackerds', yeah, right there where they have Joe's Place. That was Nackerds'. The old man Nackerd used to have a store there. But now, all those buildings, they changed a lot. In the first place, the Nackerds', they couldn't -competition was too much for them. They started closing down, because the Safeway and Sears and Montgomery [Ward] and all that. Then they had quite a bit of competition.
Muñoz: Yeah. So the credit was at the Babbitts' Grocery Store, huh?
Morales: Babbitts' Grocery Store, yeah.
Muñoz: And so when people worked out in the fields, they would bring extra beans or potatoes home?
Morales: Yeah.
Muñoz: Your neighborhood store was the Mir, then?
Morales: Yeah.
Muñoz: What means of transportation did you have at that time?
Morales: (laughs) There was no such a thing! They all had rides with different people that had cars. Used to live here and had to go to work, they have to ride with friends or something like that. Transportation was -nobody had any car -not even the foremans. Not even the foremans had a car. They didn't even have a telephone.
Muñoz: So you did not live in the Chantes?
Morales: No.
Muñoz: Robert Morales was telling me he lived in the Chantes -your brother did, huh?
Morales: Yeah.
Muñoz: Do you remember the Chantes?
Morales: Oh, yeah, I remember him. But he's the youngest: Geronimo, your mother, and Robert.
Muñoz: Yeah, and my tios. So not being a chantero, you lived in Agasi, huh?
Morales: Yeah, well, I used to live not in the Chantes exactly. They had houses over by 66, and over here by Milton. And what they called the Chantes was in between there -that's what they called the Chantes.
Muñoz: The types of jobs you held were at the lumber mills and at the powerplant. Was that the only type of job you held when you were growing up?
Morales: Well, like I say, I worked in the box factory, and then the powerplant. And most of my life I worked there in the powerplant.
Muñoz: How about women working then? Did a lot of women go out to work then?
Morales: Not in the mill. They were working there during the war. Before that and after the war, there were no women. In fact, your mother was working there.
Muñoz: At the mill during the war?
Morales: Yeah. And I don't know, some others. But before the war and after the war, the only women that were working is the office. But from there on, there were no women working out there.
Muñoz: I remember her saying that she worked at the molina, yeah, during that time, too. What was it like during the thirties, then? Do you remember Prohibition?
Morales: Oh, yeah, yeah.
Muñoz: What do you remember about it?
Morales: (chuckles) Well, people were making their own liquor this way and that. Well, at first, I didn't know much about that, because I was too young. I couldn't buy anything like that, until after Roosevelt. When Roosevelt came in, then he opened that -all this.
Muñoz: Do you have any memories or stories that you remember people making it and selling it at home? You know, I heard that my Grandpa Raimundo made some.
Morales: Yeah. Some of them would make beer, and others were a little more, I don't know, they could make some of this corn liquor.
Muñoz: Oh, yeah, what do they call that, moola?
Morales: Moola. (chuckles) White [mule?].
Muñoz: White mule, yeah. Must have been pretty good stuff, huh? I understand there was a real good person that prepared it or knew how to make it.
Morales: Oh, yeah, they had stills, where they distill it and all that. Yeah, he was quite.... They had to be some -at least how to work that, because it wasn't just like beer. They have mash there. But making this moola....
Muñoz: You have to have the recipe, huh?
Morales: Yeah, that was a little more complicated.
Muñoz: That would have been interesting to watch, yeah. Did you ever get to watch anyone make that?
Morales: Yeah, there was a guy that had a bakery, and at one time they used to go out there and buy, and he was working, distilling this kind of white mule, yeah.
Muñoz: So then they distributed, huh? They put it in bottles and sold it out?
Morales: Yeah.
Muñoz: That was quite the thing to make money then.
Morales: Oh, yeah.
Muñoz: Pretty interesting. When you were growing up, do you remember many doctors? Who were your doctors when you were ill, when you were growing up?
Morales: Pronsky, [Sherman?], Sechrist. And who was the other one? There were about three or four of them, not very many. They had the hospital there by the office.
Muñoz: And curranderas. Were there many of those around, too?
Morales: Oh, yeah.
Muñoz: I have to sometimes question, what is it about curranderas that they cure you? It has to be the faith in them, huh?
Morales: Yeah, well, there were some curranderas, but I didn't get to know them very good, because the grownups were the ones that used to go with the curranderas and all that, yeah.
Muñoz: So the remedies were like a home remedy, huh?
Morales: Yeah.
Muñoz: You had to know your plants.
Morales: Yeah, that's right. (pause) Was Robert supposed to be here?
Muñoz: No, I did Robert last Wednesday. He had interesting stories, too.
Morales: Well, he was born in 1931.
Muñoz: So he was able to tell me about some of the Chantes, about the vision, el santo.
Morales: Yeah, they used to have a santo right there -Christ, a statue right there. There were chantes right there, the santo was there.
Muñoz: And he had some theory on why the santo was put there. Did he tell you that?
Morales: Something because the people were acting very foolishly, yeah.
Muñoz: There might be something to that, huh?
Morales: Oh, yeah.
Muñoz: Discrimination in the community -did you ever see that?
Morales: Well, yeah, there was some discrimination -especially of Spanish- speaking people.
Muñoz: Among themselves, you think?
Morales: Yeah, even among themselves, because some of them had been here longer than others. And there was discrimination between them -especially the people that were born in New Mexico.
Muñoz: That would be interesting.
Morales: There was discrimination between those Spanish-speaking people and the ones that were born in Mexico.
Muñoz: Why would that be?
Morales: Well, because they were born here in the first place -the people that were born here in the United States. And they thought that people that were born in Mexico were way lower than them.
Muñoz: Oh, I see. Why did they give them the word manitos?
Morales: Mañosos [the lazy ones (Tr.)].
Muñoz: (laughs) Mañosos?! _______ mañoso?
Morales: Well (chuckles), there's some people that used to, like, ask for money and never pay the money to them [i.e., borrow and never repay (Tr.)]. That was the kind of mañoso they used to be. Or even they would go to the stores and have credit there, and all of a sudden they go away, like Babbitts' and Nackerds' and all those [would be left holding the bag (Tr.)].
[END SIDE 1, BEGIN SIDE 2]
Muñoz: Robert mentioned that. There was a crime at the Chantes. Did you see a lot of crime in Flagstaff, when you were growing up?
Morales: Well, they used to play poker in someplace around there, and all of a sudden there was a guy, somebody murdered him, on account of playing cards. There was one or two of 'em. People that used to commit those crimes (snaps fingers) they just do that and skip the country.
Muñoz: Really? They were from Mexico?
Morales: Yeah, all of them were from Mexico. In fact, people in New Mexico, they wouldn't do things like that. But this gambling, that's what happened. They did not allow any gambling, but they used to do it.
Muñoz: Was the law enforcement at that time in Flagstaff by the sheriff?
Morales: Yeah, there was a fellow by the name of Ruben Neil [phonetic spelling] and Cooper and Jim Wright, who were sheriffs here.
Muñoz: Do you know ______ Guadalupe Sanchez, Lupe Sanchez?
Morales: Oh, yeah.
Muñoz: There's a story he was telling me, too, about the gambling part. He said he knew who the policeman or the sheriff was, but he couldn't remember his name. Do you know who it was?, the sheriff that was around down on this side, then?
Morales: Well, the sheriffs....
Muñoz: The ones that you just mentioned?
Morales: Yeah, well, I guess Lupe was here when they had this Ruben Neil. That was when Lupe was here. And the rest, like Cooper and the rest, they were.... But Ruben Neil was the one that was the main [one] in those days when Lupe Sanchez was working.
Muñoz: So that was pretty much the law enforcement here.
Morales: Yeah.
Muñoz: In the neighborhood that you lived in, Agasi, what kind of games did you play when you were a young kid growing up?
Morales: Well, hide-and-seek was the main thing, I guess. We used to like to go in the pool halls, and they wouldn't let us play pool, but we could watch and see.
Muñoz: So you learned by watching, huh?
Morales: Yeah, but they wouldn't let us [play], because we weren't eighteen years old yet. Those people like your uncle and all those, we were still young kids.
Mu??????oz: I was going to ask you, were there any Españoles then during that time?
Morales: Well, there's Mirs, and the Miguels, and Gutierrez.
Muñoz: I don't think _______________.
Morales: In fact, he was one of the firemans. Oh, he died a long time ago. I didn't get to know him, but he was from Spain.
Muñoz: What other ones do you remember? I was thinking about the Lopezes, Lola Lopez.
Morales: Lola Lopez? Where did they used to live?
Muñoz: On Beaver. I knew a Lopez family that lived on Beaver.
Morales: I knew some Lopez.
Muñoz: Okay, (in Spanish) ______________.
Morales: Españoles. Those were the ones that used to __________. Mexicans, they didn't like that. They liked the sawmill.
Muñoz: That's just what I was going to ask you, were there any Mexicanos?
Morales: But the borregas, that was for the Spaniards. They used to come from Spain, and right away they could get a job there with Babbitts, and Dr. Raymond used to have borregas and all that.
Muñoz: Okay, let's see. Any role models that you can think that you had any, or admired anybody when you were growing up?
Morales: No.
Muñoz: Your house on Agasi that you lived in, did you guys buy it?
Morales: The properties?
Muñoz: Yeah.
Morales: I remember that your grandparents, they all owned their property there, but I don't know if they bought 'em from Babbitts, or in fact, I remember they all owned their homes.
Muñoz: Do you remember that time when that neighborhood burned?
Morales: I wasn't here. I went to California during the war, and then my nephew told me what had happened.
Muñoz: Which is Robert?
Morales: No, Mike.
Muñoz: Mike doesn't live here in Flagstaff, huh?
Morales: [No.]
Muñoz: I haven't talked to anyone that remembers that fire, how it happened.
Morales: In fact, I remember he told me, but I don't know just when that happened.
Muñoz: That was some time back, yeah. That pretty much covers my questions, Mr. Morales. Do you have any other stories?
Morales: Well, the only story I remember now, this Mirs, all the families, pretty near all of them are gone -there's only one.
Muñoz: Salvador?
Morales: Salvador.
Muñoz: Yes.
Morales: I went to school with all of them.
Muñoz: They all went to St. Anthony's, too?
Morales: Yeah.
Muñoz: How many Hispanic people would you say went to St. Anthony's, quite a bit?
Morales: This Mirs, and there were -which ones? (pause) There were about three or four.
Muñoz: Majorcas?
Morales: Well, the Majorcas -they were younger than I. The parents of these Majorcas. And all the Majorcas were younger than I am. So when I left school, they were the ones that started there. The parents were from Old Mexico, and they had all their families, and they started going.
Muñoz: So let's see, that was during what -I was trying to figure -year that you went to school at St. Anthony's? So St. Anthony's was there for some time, then, huh?
Morales: Oh, yeah.
Muñoz: My mother told me she came to the training school over here, too - Chata.
Morales: Well, she was younger than I am, so when she started going over there, I was already out of school.
Muñoz: So Geronimo and you are about the same age?
Morales: No, he's about.... When was he born, do you know?
Muñoz: Unt-uh.
Morales: No, he was about two or three years older than I am.
Muñoz: Do you remember that tiendita across the street from my mom's house?, Don Bobadia?
Morales: Yeah.
Muñoz: How long had that store been there?
Morales: Well, when I came back, the store wasn't there anymore. It was Jesus, he had it there, but this store you're talking about, it wasn't there anymore. I don't know just how long it lasted, but it wasn't there anymore.
Muñoz: And you're at Don Vasquez's apartment, huh? _______ and Manuel Vasquez in el apartmento de Manuel?
Morales: Yeah, that's where I lived __________.
Muñoz: Yeah, he's another old-timer that's been here for a long time. That was Frankie Livos' nephew. Frankie Livo __________.
Muñoz: __________, uh-huh. So the only games you played when you were growing up was hide-and-seek, huh?
Morales: Yeah. Well, play here and there. But there weren't very many kids in those days when I was going to school. Some of them were younger, they haven't even started school. Then when I came out of school, they started -like your mother, and Chi-chi, your tio. Where is he now?
Muñoz: He's in California. I think he's in Los Angeles -I'm not too sure exactly where in there, but he's still living. Geronimo still lives, too, and he's in San Jose.
Muñoz: Oh, yeah, in San Jose. He married a Juarez girl, Chula.
Muñoz: Chula Wallace. When you came back [in 1924, 1925] and you went to Our Lady of Guadalupe, [had] the church already been built?
Morales: No, they started that in 1926.
Muñoz: I don't know if Geronimo was the second or third person to get married in that church -something like that is what I heard.
Morales: Yeah, he was married in 1930, so he went to Guadalupe Church, they were married right there. Yeah, I remember.
Muñoz: Vince Lopez has that picture. And when you were a little youngster and you were growing up, did you do any odd jobs outside of the house to work, too, when you were about ten, twelve?
Morales: No.
Muñoz: Pretty much stayed with your books, huh?
Morales: Yeah. Well, in the first place, it was so small that there was no such a thing as.... Well, they used to hire -stores, like I don't know if you knew Angel Fonseca.
Muñoz: No. He had a store? Angel Fonseca had a store?
Morales: No, he used to work for Babbitts'.
Muñoz: Oh, okay, he worked for Babbitts' and he would hire people?
Morales: Yeah. In fact, when Babbitts had that grocery store right there on the corner where Joe's Place [is] now. Fonseca was older than I am. He was about as old as Geronimo. But there were no things for young people to get odd jobs or something like that, no -unless if you had a bicycle you could deliver papers.
Muñoz: That would be pretty interesting. Did you know Mr. Ouza when he came to Flagstaff?
Morales: Frank Ouza?
Muñoz: Uh-huh.
Morales: I went to school with Joe Ouza, his brother. In fact, I used to hear of Frank Ouza, and I didn't know him, until I came back from California. And over there, Fresca's, I remember there was a guy there, _______ huevo, _____ huevo. And he said, "Well, I'll see you, Coloradas." "Who's that guy?" "That's Frank Ouza." I've heard his name for forty years, and I didn't know him. "Well, that's Frank Ouza."
Muñoz: He called you Coloradas? Is that a nickname.
Morales: Fresca's wife, and Fresca's sister-in-law. Yeah, they called me Coloradas what that hair.
Muñoz: Hair is red, yeah. They were Chavezes, right?
Morales: Yeah, they were Chavez, yeah.
Mu??oz: And they're from the Plaza Vieja, or Coconino?
Morales: Coconino, way out there, yeah. Yeah, they have a property way out there. One of the Chavez died, Lucy's sister.
Muñoz: ___________, I don't know her.
Morales: Olivia.
Muñoz: Oh!
Morales: She died.
Muñoz: I don't remember her. Okay, Las Champas, was that pretty familiar then?
Morales: That was for Spaniards. I remember I used to go over there to Champas.
Muñoz: Do you know on San Francisco Street, when Tito Martinez vivé, they had a wall.
Morales: Roboté.
Muñoz: Is that what....
Morales: Yeah, they played that. It's still there, but they don't do that. Well, that's where they used to play champas.
Muñoz: Oh, in that place, too.
Morales: Yeah, all those Españoles, they used to go over there.
Muñoz: Did Tito Martinez build that? No?
Morales: No, Jesus Garcia. He was the one that built that place. That was Española, Spaniard.
Muñoz: _______________ Delgada.
Morales: Well, Delgada used to live here in front of the ones that lived ___________.
Muñoz: Uh-huh, yeah, but his sister, _____ boarding house on O'Leary.
Morales: Yeah, that's right.
Muñoz: That's been there for a long time, too. Quite a long time. I was going to ask you, even before you went to -there wasn't any other churches -you say Nativity was built later on. Was there another church before that people attended?
Morales: Well, Catholic, that was the only -Nativity. Well, it wasn't Nativity -saint.... Where they had the school. And there were other churches, but I don't remember them. Oh, the one here on San Francisco, this Doña Blasa, that was way out.
Muñoz: Before my time.
Morales: Yeah. That was the church here before you get to El Charro, right there.
Muñoz: On the corner?
Morales: Yeah, on the corner, right there on the corner.
Muñoz: As a matter of fact, Robert's family, his mom and dad used to live there.
Morales: Yeah, right there, yeah.
Muñoz: I remember that. Okay, we've pretty much covered everything. So I want to thank you, Mr. Morales, for your time, and holding the interview with me. (tape turned off and on) ¿Con bloques? Masonry?
Morales: Oh, yeah, yeah, my uncle, yeah.
Muñoz: Oh, so he's your uncle.
Morales: Yeah, he was my uncle.
Muñoz: What was his first name?
Morales: Transito. There was Transito Martinez, Transito Montoya, and Transito Yaralde, three Transitos.
Muñoz: That lived here in Flagstaff.
Morales: This Transito Montoya, don't you know their family? The one that's married to -oh, what's her.... ________ Montoyas.
Muñoz: The Montoyas that I'm thinking is by the Rio de Flag on Dupont.
Morales: Rio de Flag?
Muñoz: Montoyas. Ponsiano?
Morales: Transito.
Muñoz: Okay, that's your tio, then?
Morales: Yeah, that's my tio.
Muñoz: Now, he used to build molds?
Morales: Yeah.
Muñoz: And he helped make these things for Nativity Church, that's what I understand.
Morales: Oh, yeah.
Muñoz: Yeah, so he donated that time or material to build the Nativity Church.
Morales: Oh, yeah.
Muñoz: Do you remember that?
Morales: This is Montoya?
Muñoz: Uh-huh, this is Montoya. And Ponsiano? I think that's his name, that did that building. Next to the Vasquezes, where Tranquelino Vasquez lived. The Montoyas here and la arroyo here, Tranquelino right here. And I guess all that is his property right here.
Morales: Oh, yeah, yeah.
Muñoz: Do you know who I'm talking about?
Morales: Yeah.
Muñoz: Not those Montoyas? You're not related to those Montoyas?
Morales: No.
Muñoz: Can't remember. And I bet....
Morales: Estela, the one that's....
Muñoz: Freddie Montoya?
Morales: Yeah. Oh, Freddie Montoya....
Muñoz: That's another Montoya?
Morales: That's.... Yeah. He died, quite a while.
Muñoz: Yeah, Albert and Fred -Fred Montoya.
Morales: Fred Montoya, yeah.
Muñoz: So he's not related to you either.
Morales: Well.... Did you want me to fill this in and send it to you, or what?
Muñoz: Yeah, hold on. Let me ask you about what do you think of the closing of Our Lady, Guadalupe Church, right now?
Morales: Well, the thing is that the ones who are still here, they would like that. I don't like it, nobody around there likes it, because that's a big change, and we hate to abandon our church here. Well, like I say, there's a lot of writing, a lot of talking, and I really don't know what's gonna happen.
Muñoz: They say because of the shortage of priests.
Morales: Yeah. Oh, yeah, they keep on sayin' about that -shortage.
Muñoz: You know a lot of people that don't like the idea of that happening?
Morales: Whoever I talk [to], our parishioners, they don't like that. Even once in a while, I see white people going there, and they say, "I like to come here to this church because it looks like a church." (chuckles) All this altar and all this praying. I like that idea.
Muñoz: Yeah. I was going to ask you, do you remember the building of the church? Were you a part of it? Or you said you came here when it was already built?
Morales: Well, they used to collect here, where we used to work. There were other people that were donating their time, and we used to donate money.
Muñoz: To build Our Lady of Guadalupe Church?
Morales: The church, yeah.
Muñoz: So that would be over here at the sawmill when you were working there?
Morales: Oh, yeah.
Muñoz: How did they do that? Did you automatically donate, or did they ask for you?
Morales: Well, to donate so much, because they needed the money, and it was just starting. They saved a lot of money, because there were a lot of people that didn't even get paid, so that was something, too.
Muñoz: Do you remember ever having to donate to build Nativity Church?
Morales: No, not the Nativity.
Muñoz: Okay. I hope it doesn't change for a lot of the old-timers there. I hope it stays open.
Morales: Well, like I say, there's a lot of talk and a lot of writing. I don't know what's going to happen.
Muñoz: So you'll just have to wait and see what the outcome is, huh?
Morales: Yeah. Well, you say that's about all?
Muñoz: Yeah.
Morales: Okay.
[END OF INTERVIEW]