Oral history interview with Margarita Martinez de Gomez, (part 1)[with transcript], March 12, 1997.

              24799A
NAU.OH.97.68.5A
Margarita Martinez de Gomez- Part 1
Interviewed by Delia Ceballos Muñoz
March 12, 1997

Transcriptionist's note: English is the narrator's second language. Grammar and syntax have been enhanced to facilitate readability. Researchers wanting to capture the unique flavor of this interview will want to listen to the tape, as well as read the transcript.
Muñoz:... with NAU Cline Library, working for Special Collection and Archives. And I'm in an oral project, and today I'm going to do Margarita Martinez de Gomez of 324 East Brannen Avenue. It's 2:03, and today is March 12, 1997. 

[Narrator's daughter Tillie Gomez is present and makes a few clarifying comments, which aren't transcribed, unless pertinent.]
Muñoz: What's your date of birth, Margarita?
Gomez: December 19, 1909. 
Muñoz: I'm going to start with who were your parents?
Gomez: My parents were Antonio Martinez, Margarita
Osle Cubria ... de Martinez. So what else? (laughter)
Muñoz: How did they get to Flagstaff, Margarita?
Gomez: We came through water by boat. Not boat, but by ship or whatever they call it. We arrived in Flagstaff about the thirteenth of December, 1920.
Muñoz: You mentioned your dad was here before he brought you over, right?
Gomez: My dad was here about nine years before we came here.
Muñoz: And what brought him to Flagstaff?
Gomez: We arrived in Flagstaff about the thirteenth of
December of 1920, by train from New York.
Muñoz: Okay, you came to Flagstaff by train from New York.
Gomez: From New York. We were in Ellis Island.
Muñoz: Yeah, you mentioned that.
Gomez: Yeah, for two days.
Muñoz: Was that you, your mother, and who else?
Gomez: And my brother, Nino, and my [sister] Manuela_ Nellie.
Muñoz: You mentioned that your, [father] was here in Flagstaff already and he sent for you, right?
Gomez: Yeah, my father was here, and he sent the money over to come to Flagstaff and live here with him.
Muñoz: What brought your father to Flagstaff?
Gomez: My uncle, Antonio Osle, Jose Antonio, he was here. I think he came in 1913. Then he sent a letter to my father in Spain for him. It would be easier for him to come and work here. At that time they could make better lives here than in Spain. So my dad decided to come, about one year after. (confusion) In 1911, yeah, because my mother was pregnant when my dad came to Flagstaff. From that pregnancy, my brother Nino_he just passed away, you know_ was born. So he must have come in 1912, early in the springtime, maybe about April or May. Then my brother was born in October.
Muñoz: Did he come with the sheep, or just come with your uncle?
Gomez: Well, no, he came to a lumber mill in Williams. There were a lot of Spaniards working in the lumber mill in Williams. And then he went to a sheep camp to work. I don't know who he was working [for], really, he was working with ... I don't remember.
Muñoz: Okay, we'll come back to that when you can remember it.
Gomez: I don't know if I'm going to remember it. I know he was a cop here in Flagstaff, a sheriff. I
think his name was Francis. Do you remember a sheriff?
Daughter: Perry Francis.
Gomez: Perry Francis!
Muñoz: Okay, so that's who he work for.
Gomez: Yeah. Well, with his dad, because he was sheriff here. But his dad had owned the sheep. And he worked until we came from Spain, with him. Then he came and started working in the Dolans Lumber Mill, and that’s where he stayed until he passed away.
Muñoz: So at that time did he live here at this house? Gomez: Oh, no, no, no, no, no.
Muñoz: Where did you guys live?
Gomez: He was in boarding houses. Every time that he moved around_there's some Spaniards that had some boarding houses, and sometimes when he was on and off, he will stay in a boarding house_until we came.
Muñoz: Until you came. And then that's when you bought your little place?
Gomez: Well, then he_we just moved to home, that I was telling you that we rented from Victor and Santana.
Muñoz: Oh yeah. 
Gomez: Yes, yes. 
Gomez: It wasn't very many people around.
Muñoz: There wasn't?
Gomez: No. When we came here in 1920, I can't recall how many people lived here, but I don't think it was quite about 500 people when we came here.
Muñoz: So on this side of town, you're saying.... 
Gomez: We didn't live on this side until we got married and bought the house. We used to live on the other side of the river there.
Muñoz: Rio de Flag?
Gomez: River de Flag, yeah. And then we moved to Victor and Santana’s home, which is being [unclear] and made the Butler.
Muñoz: Oh, Butler.
Gomez: Wider, yeah. It was right by the corner there, but the streets were very narrow. We have some wooden sidewalks.
Muñoz: Yeah? (Muñoz laughs) Okay. What do you remember of your early childhood when you were growing up near Flagstaff?
Gomez: I went to school in Spain. We had some nuns in there_old-fashioned nuns. (Muñoz laughs) Okay. And I started at seven years old, and I was going to school until we started to come to Flagstaff_I went in Spain. Then when we came from Spain, there was a little school across here, Brannen School. Do you remember that? 
Muñoz: No.
Gomez: Well, it was sold to those [Lifers for Peace?]. Anyways, my dad put us here because we were living in this corner here on the other side of Carmen, where the la Martina lives. Okay, we used to live in there when we came. So they brought us to school here. Well, we couldn't learn anything because we didn't know anything.
Muñoz: Who were your teachers? Do you remember the teachers that were there then?
Gomez: Not all of them. I remember one. Sister Beneford. That's the only one I remember, because there was about four or five rooms in that.
Muñoz: In Brannen School?
Gomez: Uh-huh, yeah. And we stayed there, gee, in that school, about four months. Father Cypriano Vabre was here in St. Anthony’s School. So one day my dad came from the mill, and Father Cypriano was talking to him. He said, "Antonio, why don't you send your children to the Catholic school?" At that time it was, well, St. Anthony’s School, it was where the Holies.... 
Daughter: St. Mary's.
Gomez: No- St. Mary's. It was St. Anthony’s School at that time. And my father said, "I don't know, Father, because I'm not making that much money to pay for tuition." And Father Vabre said, "Look, it's going to cost you one dollar for the three of them for you to send them to the Catholic school." So we moved from this school to the Catholic School at that time. But I didn't go about two years, the most.
Muñoz: At the most?
Gomez: Uh-huh. Well, I was_my birthday here was the nineteenth of December, in 1920, so I was eleven years old.
Muñoz: Yeah, okay.
Gomez: And then Dona Maria Rodriguez_you remember her?
Muñoz: Uh-huh.
Gomez: She was the interpreter for old the Spanish- speaking people [who] didn't know how to talk English. She used to find me a little job after school with one [person] and another_just to clean, wash, whatever they had_small pieces, not big pieces_and clean the dust and do dishes. After school, I used to go to work at that time.
Muñoz: So you were about how old?
Gomez: Well, twelve, thirteen years old at the most.
Muñoz: So you were working already!
Gomez: I worked, Delia, I worked!
Muñoz: I believe it, I believe it.
Gomez: At that time, anything that you could [do].
Anything. You had to get ahold of it to help him.
Muñoz: Your parents, yeah.
Gomez: Even though they were paying you $1.50 a week. 
Muñoz: It's amazing how you were able to make it through life with just $1.50 a week or so, huh? I mean, there wasn't that much money going around.
Muñoz: At that time, they were paying one dollar for light, one dollar for water. So you know, with that, it was a little help. Of course, everything was a lot cheaper at that time, too. You know, it came with the wages.
Muñoz: Right, it balanced out.
Gomez: Yeah, balanced. 
Muñoz: Also, when you were growing up at home, the types of food, let's say, prepared at home are different than what you learned to adapt to here in the United States?
Gomez: Well, it was hard. In the first place was the language.
Muñoz: That was hard [for us] to adapt to, too.
Gomez: For us, it was hard.
Muñoz: So do you think that you struggled a lot of the time, trying to learn English?
Gomez: Well, yeah, we did, because even during school, you had to talk English, and do all the homework or whatever on the blackboard and all that_in English. We couldn't do it.
Muñoz: Yeah, I'll bet.
Gomez: So we had to do it in Spanish by ourselves, so the teacher won't hear us.
Muñoz: They didn't let you speak Spanish in class? 
Gomez: Well, no, not in class. Outside, yeah, with a lot of kids around, yeah. But not inside, no. And really, like multiplying and all that, we had to do it in Spanish by ourselves, so the teachers won't hear us. It was hard. When you come from another place, and being such a small town as it was, what I have learned now is, because once we moved to this house, I had American people, white people, living next door, and they didn't speak Spanish. 
Gomez: Yeah, talking with people, I did. I don't talk very good English, but I can manage.
Muñoz: Yeah, and be understood. When you were growing up, Margarita, did your daddy.... Well, for the food, did you have gardens, or did you raise chickens?
Gomez: No. We didn't have the place to raise them until I got married. We moved to this house, and they had little chicks in the back. And we used to raise chickens, rabbits, and a pig- they allowed all that, at that time.
Muñoz: At that time, yeah. So the types of food that you prepared were foods from Spain?
Gomez: Well, what my mother brought from Spain, yeah. Well, when we came, we lived mostly on beans and soup_ fresh soup with a soup bone and [bread?]. And garbanzos and, you know, potatoes_all just the regular things at that time.
Muñoz: So where did you go for groceries if you needed to buy groceries? Was there a neighborhood grocery store? Gomez: Right here where the bar is right across the Santa Fe tracks_it's a bar.
Muñoz: Oh, Joe's Place?
Gomez: Joe's Place. Babbitt’s used to have a grocery store right there. Before Babbitt’s had the grocery store, Nackard’s, the old Nackard’s, had a store in there to sell like....
Muñoz: Material?
Gomez: Material_all kinds of materials.
Muñoz: You know, my mom told me once that they went
door-to-door to sell carpet material.
Gomez: Yeah, but sometimes my mother used to make us
the clothes. She would send us over there to buy it.
With what it left_you know, the little that my father
would get.
Muñoz: And where was he working at the time? At the mill, right?
Gomez: The one with Dolans. This was our first lumber mill that Dolans built. And then they brought the other mill from Williams.
Muñoz: So you said you went to buy groceries at the Babbitt’s?
Gomez: Yeah, after Babbitt bought from Nackard’s.
Muñoz: Okay. And then how about your neighborhood grocery store, that Cisterna had? 
Gomez: Then we used to go and buy groceries over Salvador Mier. He had the store where right now the store is.
Muñoz: Okay, Cisterna.
Gomez: Yeah, Cisterna's.
Muñoz: But it was Salvador Mier?
Gomez: Uh-huh, that was Salvador Mier, her dad. We used to buy a lot from them, too_mostly in credit, you know. And then when my father used to get [his pay] check, he used to pay them. And I still did it after he passed away. His daughter, Mary Cisterna, we still did it, too.
Muñoz: She was there for a long time.
Gomez: A long time, yeah.
Muñoz: Now, you said you attended Brannen, and then you went to St. Anthony's, and you stopped up in the eighth grade? What grade did you say you went to?
Gomez: I didn't graduate_none of us did.
Muñoz: Okay. You went to St. Anthony's, and then you stopped at a certain grade, to help your parents?
Gomez: Yeah. I used to go, once in a while, after that, because when my mom started having babies, I had to stay with her, because my sister [didn't want] to quit school. So I had to stay as the [oldest].
Muñoz: You were trying to be a responsible adult then, huh? Gomez: Yeah! At the time I had to stay and help my mom wash diapers.
Muñoz: You know, I think it's hard to be an older kid, I really do. There's a lot of responsibility.
Gomez: No wonder! You know, the years pass and pass and pass, and you think, "Gosh, how long has this been?!"
Muñoz: So while you were going to school, what was that like? You were saying that that was kind of hard for you to try to pick up English, because you have to figure it out in Spanish before you write it out in English.
Gomez: Yeah, it was hard. Sometimes Franco also comes over, because he was going to school with us. Frank Auza he comes and visits me. He says, "I remember when you were going to school, and you had to do the arithmetic on the blackboard, and I could hear you doing it in Spanish." (Muñoz chuckles) Well, we didn't know how to do it in English, so we had to do it that way.
Muñoz: I couldn't imagine trying to go to another country and learn that language like that (snaps fingers) and do homework. It would be hard.
Gomez: We were mixed up. In Spanish, you talk, you write, and you read exactly the same. Now, in English, you write, talk, and read different_ there are three different things there that....
Muñoz: That's very true. My husband says the very same thing about [that].
Gomez: Yeah, because you pronounce different. See, in Spanish you pronounce all the things, even the.... But in English, you don't.
Muñoz: In school, did you have many friends? This question is kind of like when you were growing up, your friendships developed at home. Were they the same friends you had at school?
Gomez: Well, we used to get little friends, yeah. But we never did go out with them, because we have to come home and work at home also.
Muñoz: Oh, okay, so you had to come do chores, huh? 
Gomez: Well, yeah, we have to.... Like I said, I used to work for the people that Doña Maria found part-time for me.
Now, sometimes when I wasn't working after school, I had to come home with my sister- My father had about three or four cows, and he would sell the milk, which he was selling to your grandpa, Remidios. And the whole town, my sister and myself, we used to go and deliver milk to all [the] town, before we go to school. And then when we come back from school, I had to come home when I wasn't working after school, to wash the bottles and the dishes, because my mother was_she had her hands full with the babies. And then she would feed about five or six persons that worked in the mill, because they were living too far to go and eat in one hour, and she used to make just one meal, at meal time. And that's why sometimes I had to stay home, and [didn't go] to school.
Muñoz: I see- you helped her out a lot.
Gomez: If I did get to go to school, straight, it wasn't quite two years, because I missed a lot of school.
Muñoz: Uh-huh, but you did it to help your mom at home with the family.
Gomez: Oh, yeah.
Muñoz: Now on the milk that you delivered so early in the morning, how did you deliver that, by wagon?
Gomez: Oh, no! We used to have one of those steel baskets that six or eight bottles would fit in. And we had to carry that and leave so many bottles wherever they need one or two_whatever.
Muñoz: [Wow] that was a lot of work!
Gomez: Delia, at those times, the winters were very long, and boy, was there snow! There was so much snow that it would cover us half way. 
Muñoz: Compared to what we have now, right? We don't have that much snow now.
Gomez: No! Now is heaven compared to those times! Oh, God! One day we were delivering milk to this house that was Martina- Frank Auza and there was a ditch right on the corner, and my sister and myself_it was, oh, about seven o'clock, it was dark_and it was so completely full, that you know what? We fell in that ditch and broke all the bottles of milk that we were carrying.
Muñoz: Oh, no!
Gomez: Yeah. Sometimes, I say, I could write a book. 
Muñoz: So you broke them all, you had to replace them? 
Gomez: We had to go back home. We knocked at the door and we told her what happened, and she said, "Oh, don't worry, don't worry." And we told her, "We'll go and get you two or three more bottles," because she had about four kids, Martina. Well, one was her sister's, but she was small, and she was raising her. And then she had three of her own.
Muñoz: During the time you were going to school, or even within the community, did you notice any discrimination? Was there any discrimination?
Gomez: I never did. At that time, we all were alike, in school and everywhere. At that time, I don't remember talking about "these people" or "those people." "We don't like this, we don't like that." No, unt-uh.
Muñoz: Okay. Did you have any role models, or who did you admire when you were a young person, do you remember?
Gomez: Well, mostly I used to the nuns and the priests.
They were good to us, really.
Muñoz: And what church did you attend then?
Gomez: We used to go to the Nativity Church. In fact, that was a little church, and it was where the hall is built today. And then, you know, they took it all and they built the home, the St. Mary's Hall. Yeah, because now and then they built their new St. Mary's School. (phone rings) And now, the Nativity, they built it, I think they built it in 1920, something like that. When I got married, I got married in the old church.
Muñoz: The Nativity, the old church?
Gomez: In the old church, yeah, close to the
St. Anthony School. Oh, it's a heck of a thing.
Muñoz: Did you have a big wedding then?
Gomez: Oh, yes, or regular, because in 1928 there
weren't many people either.
Muñoz: And you married Florindo?
Gomez: To Florindo.
Muñoz: And he was from Spain also? 
Gomez: Oh, yeah. He came here in 1919, one year...
before we did, because his father was here too, working in the sheep.
Muñoz: Oh, he was?! Who did he work for?
Gomez: He kept on working for.... At that time, that we got married, he was working with Babbitt, the sheep company, Babbitt's.
Muñoz: What was that like?
Gomez: I went to the ranch with him, on the other side of the peaks.
Muñoz: So did you help at that ranch too?
Gomez: No, no, no, no. We lived, just the both of us,
alone. I just cooked for my husband, and that's it.
Just like a housewife, you know. Like a housewife.
Muñoz: You weren't cooking for the sheepherders?
Gomez: No.
Muñoz: Was there a lot of Españoles that were sheepherders for the Babbitts?
Gomez: Yeah, with Florindo there were quite a few. And then there were also Mexicans, you know, that took care of the camp. And the Spaniards used to take care of the bands of sheep.
Muñoz: So you would say that the Basque_Vascos_were already here then, tending the sheep with Babbitts? Gomez: Oh, there were a lot of Vascos here, yeah, a lot of Basques. But they're from Spain, as I am.
Muñoz: (laughs) They just call themselves Basque, yeah.
Gomez: Yeah, no kidding, they don't like to.... I don't want to say it. I don't have nothing against them.
Muñoz: No.
Gomez: I don't have nothing against them. The only thing is, that you ask them, "Oh, you're from Spain?" They say, "No, I'm a Basque." Well, the Basque are in Spain.
Muñoz: True. That's very true. My other question would be about community celebrations. Do you remember any big old fiestas or parades?
Gomez: Oh, God! Yeah, they used to have the Fourth of July over there where NAU is. They used to have the Fourth of July over there before NAU was built.
Muñoz: What was the Fourth of July like then, do you remember?
Gomez: Oh, like we have seen Indians, they brought them. Then later on, years after that, they started bringing these Indians from Mexico, Los Aztecas. They're beautiful, beautiful.
Muñoz: It's almost about the same way the Fourth of July had been celebrated at the time 	. 
Gomez: Just about the same as they've been doing here, but in a different place, because later on they took it to the city park.
Muñoz: Yeah, I remember that.
Gomez: And they had the parades all over the street, you know.
Muñoz: Do you remember that weddings were a real big
thing, and they celebrated them pretty much?
Gomez: Not very much, not like they do today, no.
They were just families and very close friends, but not
that big like they're doing. But yeah, from years to
here, you know, to this age. Now, they make big, big
weddings. At that time, no.
Muñoz: No, very simple, and at home?
Gomez: At home. Yeah, like mine was at home, just
close friends and the family, that's all.
Muñoz: How about dances?
Gomez: Yeah, they had dances in all the homes. They had boarding houses, that's where they made the dances. 
Muñoz: And who were the musicians?
Gomez: I don't really.... One was, but look, I don't
remember all of them. Guitar and trumpet, violin_but the
only ones I remember is Joe Lomalei. 
No se como se llama, ahora no me recuerdo, [I don't recall,now] his real name.
Muñoz: Frank? 
Gomez: No, Frank was his brother, who used to play too. But the other one, there were others that they get together with them. Every week they had dances at that time.
Muñoz: Would that be Spanish dances or Mexican corridos?
Gomez: No, no, no, no, just the Spanish dances. Or, you know, some of the friends that were Mexican, they could come and enjoy us. You know, enjoy with us, but otherwise very, very few_mostly Spaniards, all.
Muñoz: I was just going to ask you, did you intermix Mexican with Spanish people in music? Or was that separately? Or how do you remember that?
Gomez: (sigh) Wait a minute. There was one that I remember that got mixed is Elsie and Frank Auza. Well, she is part Mexican and part German, and Frank is a Basque, see. Right now, they're the only ones I remember. Well, my cousin, Josephine Cardenas, she was married to Mike Cardenas, which he was a Mexican also. He was a darned good man, too.
Muñoz: So you'd say there was a small amount of interchanging?
Gomez: Very, very, very small.  Yeah, in fact, to tell you the truth, the Mexicans didn’t like the Spaniards. (laughter) And the Spaniards didn't like the Mexicans. So that's how it was working, like that.
Muñoz: So that's how it worked out, huh? They kind of let each other know that they didn't like each other?.
Gomez: And you're putting all that in there- on the tape? (laughs)
Muñoz: It's not going to go nowhere. (laughs) How about baptismals?
Gomez: No. I was baptized in Spain.
Muñoz: And how about when you baptized your children?  Was that a big thing in the Spanish community? Did they make big parties?
Gomez: Unt-uh.
Muñoz: No? It was just close family, and that was that?
Gomez: Yes.  Just one dinner alone, for just the god parents? I have it in....
Muñoz: I know you do, Margaret, and I'm going to wait. 
Daughter: La familia.
Gomez: The family, just the family alone, and the sponsors.
Muñoz: What do they call them, niños and niñas?
Gomez: Well, padrino and madrina.
Muñoz: Okay. So that would be a small, little.... 
Gomez: Very, yeah. There was no money. 
Muñoz: That's why I want to know. You know, there is a big difference.
Gomez: No, there was no money to make big feasts at that time.
Muñoz: I'm interested_what type of foods were made then for....
Gomez: For baptisms?
Muñoz: Yeah, and weddings and stuff for the Españoles?
Gomez: Just the regular. Of course they spent a little bit more money, like fish and meat, you know. And soup, we always had like vermicelli soup and all that. We use a lot of that. And they used to buy the sweetbreads and all that, to go, like dessert, with chocolate or coffee, whatever they want.
Muñoz: What I find so interesting, and it always happens, is people don't think there's a difference between Spanish and Mexican...
Gomez: There is!
Muñoz: ... and their food.
Gomez: There is!
Muñoz:  Myself, being married to a Spanish man, and they think he eats tortillas, tamales, and that. And I go,  "No, he eats different."
Gomez: They never were sold in Spain, those things_ never -they were in Spain. Now, like I said, they might have it, because a lot people move from one place to another, like McDonald's  and all that, and they might have it now. But not when I was in Spain. Even though, when I went to Spain, the first time was 1971, I never saw a Mexican restaurant, wherever I lived, and I travelled.
Munoz: It's just amazing how people sometimes don't know the difference.
Gomez: It's quite different.
Muñoz: Uh-huh, the cultures.
Gomez: When we came here, my mother wouldn't eat corn. My mother wouldn't eat beets. Those were for the pigs in Spain.
Muñoz: I know, my husband told me that too. (laughs) As a matter of fact, one day I saw him eating_I had given him corn on the cob, and he's eating it and he's looking at me and he says, "If my mother sees me eat this, she's going to think I'm crazy!" (laughs)
Gomez: Yeah. My mother never, never, never.
Muñoz: Funerals_how were they recognized? Were they sometimes at home, like velorios, you know?  
Gomez: Yeah, in Spain they use that. I don't know right now, but when I was still there, growing up there, my grandpa died in his bed in the house. And they have to bury them, because they didn't clean them up or nothing.
Muñoz: Oh, I see, like they do now. 
Gomez: The next day_they might die today_the next day they have to bury them.
Muñoz: Did they practice the same thing here in Flagstaff, then, do you remember?
Gomez: When we came?
Muñoz: Yeah, when you came, was that the same practice?
Gomez: No, they did clean up the dead. The mortuary was across from the post office.
Daughter: Where the Monte Vista is now.
Gomez: No, way down below.
Daughter: I know, but that used to be the Compton's Mortuary.
Gomez: Yeah, even very small, though. Of course everything has changed so much. From 1930, up, it's been changing a lot.
Muñoz: And you've seen all that change, have you not? 
Gomez: I have seen all that change, yeah.
Muñoz: Christmases_how were they celebrated?
Gomez: In Spain?
Muñoz: Well, you brought your culture with you, how would you celebrate it at home?
Gomez: We didn't have any Christmas here.
Muñoz: You didn't?
Gomez: Maybe we buy a handkerchief as a gift. And I remember my Aunt Marta, which was my Tio Jose Antonio’s new wife, I remember about two years after we came from Spain, he bought Nellie, my sister, and myself one of those bone bracelets that used to have some little sparkle, little stones. That I remember. And I had it for a long time, and I don't know what happened to it. That's the only Christmas that we had, because there was no money to buy any gifts for anybody. We were blessed, thank God, they had enough food on the table in those times_even in Christmas and all year round.
Muñoz: Okay, dances we covered, that there were dances. How about dance halls on San Francisco_do you remember any dance halls on San Francisco?
Gomez: Just the "chin-chin-chung." (laughter) That was a Mexican hall. Because our dances were all in the boarding houses, not outside. But the Chin Chun Chan that was the Mexicans.
Muñoz: You told me a story about that on the sixteenth of September.
Gomez: Yeah, September.
Muñoz: (laughs) They celebrated that, some of the.... 
Gomez: The Sixteenth of September, yeah, the Mexicans would bring down all the Spaniards, down to the floor. 
Muñoz: And then who would bring Españoles? Who would speak up for the Españoles? 
Gomez: Well, we didn't go. But I remember Romana Mier she went one night, because I guess they teased her to go, you know. I don't know who else went, but I know Romana did, because she told us after that. And she was all right for a while, until they started saying 	el grito like they called, and then started bringing down all the Spanish people_down from Mexico, that they were so mean to the Mexicans and all that. And she got sick, she got homesick. She said, "No more! I'm not going no more!" And she didn't go.
Muñoz:  Okay. How about gambling at that time? Do you remember any gambling? Chapas, huh?
Gomez: There was some. There was some gambling. But, you know, in certain boarding houses, not in all of them, but in certain. And then being caught with them, but they didn't do much to them. Of course they had to pay a lot of fines, you know.
Muñoz: Oh?
Gomez: Oh, yeah. In fact, they warned them not to have gambling, but like these bars, you know, then, that used to have a room in the back, until the detectives or whoever they were caught them. But they had to be_you know, they had to tell them where. But in the homes, no, we didn't used to have it_more in the bars.
Muñoz: More in the bars, or in the boarding houses. 
Gomez: Some of them.
Muñoz: How many boarding houses would you say were there here?
Gomez: Well, see, the way they build the boarding houses, they have big houses with maybe five or six rooms. A lot of people that work in the sheep business, they used to get one month vacation, and they save all that money during those eleven  months that they work. So then they used to come and find someplace where they can stay one month. They had to pay so much for room and board, which they would give them breakfast and lunch and dinner at night.
Muñoz: And who would do the cooking for them? The person that owned the boarding house?
Gomez: The wife of the one that owns the boarding house. Of course sometimes they did gamble, but very little. Just, to see, who wins. The ones that lose, they had to pay for chickens and all that for the meal_you know, for the night meal. They used to pay for that. But that really wasn't gambling of money_it was gambling to have a nice big supper.
Muñoz: Well, that was good.
Gomez: Yeah.
Muñoz: How many boarding houses were on O'Leary, do you think?  
Gomez: None on O'Leary. It was here in.... Wait a minute, this is O'Leary! Yeah. There was one almost by the corner, there. There was Santas Boarding House, where I used to do dishes for her, too. Then there was one on San Francisco where Tito Martinez lived. That was a boarding house of Jesus Garcia.
Munoz:  Okay, so it was another Españole?
Gomez: There was another Spaniard, yeah. And then the Becerril used to have a boarding house also.
Muñoz: Who did?
Gomez: The Becerril, Arsenia's mom and Alejandro Becerril.
Daughter: By Tony Sandoval's house.
Muñoz: Oh, by Tony's.
Daughter: The historic....
Muñoz: Oh, yeah, I remember that.
Gomez: That burned?
Muñoz: That burned down, yeah. I remember that.
Gomez: There was a boarding house, also. So I guess that's the only three things. Well, when Santa quit the boarding house, my uncle, Jose Antonio, got that house for a boarding house, and I worked with him. There were a lot of Spaniards at that time.
Muñoz: There were, huh? 
Gomez: Uh-huh, working in the mill, and then working in the sheep. Yeah, they rarely had Mexicans at that time, working in the sheep, until later on when the Spaniards quit, you know, from going.... They used to come to the lumber mill.
Muñoz: So how many Spaniards do you say were here at the time that you were growing up?
Gomez: Gosh, I don't know. There was quite a few, because all the boarding houses had the Spaniards in that_four, five, six, sometimes, each boarding house_ or maybe ten, depending on the rooms they had.
Muñoz: So these were individual men, not married with families?
Gomez: No, individuals, because they work and they want a place to stay, you know, and eat.
Muñoz: Right. Hey, we can't forget about eating! (laughter)
Gomez: And me, because the Spaniards are big eaters, a lot of them.
Muñoz: Crime. Do you remember any crime in Flagstaff when you were growing up, or when you were married or....
Gomez: No. No, sometimes we used to go after the dances, we used to go like Fannie or Arsenia, myself,
Nellie, Elsie. Elsie got with us all the time, because she was living in a little house behind the green one that we were living at the time. She got very attached to us. And a lot of others, they had their own homes anyways. After the dances, we used to go and order some milk or pies at Bender's Restaurant.
Muñoz: Where was that at?
Gomez: It was a big restaurant, and it was (sigh) right where that, on Santa Fe, right where that Indian things they have to the right, as you go from here, to the right side?  There was a motel there.
Muñoz: Oh, okay.
Daughter: The underpass, uh-huh, and then you turn right_that was the Vanderveir. Under the underpass? 
Gomez: No, no, no, no, no, no.
Muñoz: The Vandervier’s?
Daughter: Yeah, the Vandervier’s.
Gomez: No, Vandervier’s esta en el otro lado [on the other side], before you get to the_across the tracks. You know where the depot is?
Muñoz: Uh-huh.
Gomez: Okay. Where the depot is, just right right across, there was Bender's Restaurant [Café]. It was a big restaurant.
Muñoz: Yeah, that must have been many different things. Wasn't it the Rowens Pharmacy at one time too? 
Gomez: No.
Muñoz: No, it's not the same one? 
Gomez: Not over there, no. Babbitt’s used to have a pharmacy to the end of the.... So, we used to go, Arsenia and Fannie and myself and my sister Nellie, to have a glass of milk and a piece of pie. Doniciso Martin was working for Benders. He made the best pies- lemon   pie, and we used to go at two o'clock in the morning when the dance was over. No one bothered us. Nobody. And there were no men with us_just ourselves.
And you wouldn't see nobody in the streets.
Muñoz: It was pretty safe then, huh?
Gomez: Yeah, it was pretty safe at that time.
Muñoz: You could say you can leave your doors unlocked and no one would bother them, huh?
Gomez: Right, right.
Muñoz: That's something.
All: Not anymore! (laughter)
Gomez: How much more?
Muñoz: I'm getting almost to the end. What do you remember during Prohibition time, bootlegging?
Gomez: Don't put that in there, no way!
Muñoz: I think that's interesting.
Gomez: Yeah, they were selling liquor they made themselves. And they were selling liquor, you know, but very privately. You had to know who would come and drink, because sometimes the one that_detectives come in just plain clothes, and you don't know who they were. So we don't open the door to everybody at that time. We kind of knew who was legal and who was not. 
Muñoz: So are you saying they all made it at home, or only certain people made it at home?
Gomez: Certain people. They didn't make it at home_ they'd go out in the mountains to make it.
Muñoz: Oh, they had it out in the mountains.
Gomez: Oh, yeah, they hid it out, and then when they needed it, they used to go and bring maybe two, three, or four bottles, depending.
Muñoz: And that was just to have a good time at home? Or did they sell it?
Gomez: No, they sold it. It was for sale. That's the way they made money at that time_if you won't be caught. Because if you were to be caught, you had to pay a lot of money.
Muñoz: Oh, so you just had to pay a fine?
Gomez: You might go to jail, too, at the same time, because it was illegal. It was illegal at all.
Muñoz: I know it was illegal, yeah. That was during the thirties.
Gomez: Yeah, and there were Germans, you know, working here too, and they were cutting logs and all that. Mostly Germans at that time, too. They used to come and drink, you know, wherever they sell the liquor. 
Muñoz: Okay. What means of transportation did you have at that time?
Gomez: Legs! (laughter)
Muñoz: Anywhere you needed to go, it was by foot. 
Gomez: All by walking. Yeah, because at that time, maybe, maybe there were cars, yeah, but people could[n't] afford them_not the poor people, they didn't have no cars. So you had to walk all the time. Like you had to walk to school. And they would give you one hour, 	 (Spanish) .
Muñoz: Let's see here. (aside about tape recorder) Did the weather keep you from walking, or whether it was raining, snowing, or....
Gomez: Ahhhh, I told you the snow would hit us mid- waist, and we had to walk, delivering the milk, and I to the store, and all that. We used to walk in the snow or rain, whatever it was.
Muñoz: We just have it so easy now, don't we?
Gomez: Yeah.
Muñoz: Medicine. What doctors do you remember? 
Gomez: Really, to tell you the truth, my mother had a doctor, his name was Dr. Fell. 
Muñoz: Did he deliver the children?
Gomez: When she had her children, my mother had her babies. Dr. Schermann is the one that assisted her. 
Muñoz: Here at home?
Gomez: At home, yeah, because most of the babies were born in that green house that they to make the street wider.
Muñoz: That's kind of sad, huh? Because that could bring you back memories.
Gomez: It is, because every time I pass right through that house, I remember, that we lived there for a long time.
Muñoz: (inaudible)
Gomez: Yeah. Then when Dr. Schermann wasn't there, because one day my sister burned her hand, and Dr. Fell came, and you know the medicine he gave her?
Muñoz: What was it?
Gomez: Unguentine, to kill the pain, because she put her palm on top of the oven, and that was hot, because it was a wood stove.
Muñoz: So using that wood stove, you'd have to go out and bring wood, huh?
Gomez: See, once my father got in the lumber mill, they sell all those scraps, you know, by truck, so we used to buy  it from the mill and let it dry, because they peeled the logs, and all that goes to wherever they want to buy it. I don't know how much it_ was at that time, probably two dollars a truck.