Oral history interview with Josie Garcia (part 2) [with transcript], April 27, 2007.

              NAU.OH.97.68.46B
164947
Josie M. Garcia (Part 2)
Interviewed by Delia Ceballos Muñoz
April 27, 2007

Muñoz:  This is going to be Tape 2 of Los Recuerdos project, with Josie Garcia.  We’re on April 26, 2007.  Okay, Josie, when we switched tapes we were talking about your dad in the sawmill.  Okay, you said pitchfork at first, but what did they call it?
Garcia:  It was a long stick with a sharp hook on the edge, and they had to hook it onto the log and then pull it, and that’s how they got the logs into the mill itself, to be cut into lumber.  When my dad was working over there, we didn’t have a car, so my mom would send me on paydays to go get the check.  She would tell me, "Take your dad his lunch, and then when you come back, don’t stop and play or anything, just come straight home."  I thought I was going so far because there was nothing, nothing, from San Francisco all the way to where the [holiday?] was.
Muñoz:  I was going to ask you, Josie, you seemed to be the number what, did you say?-I’ve forgotten.
Garcia:  Six.
Muñoz:  Number six.  So you were the one that was doing a lot more for your mom all the time?
Garcia:  My sisters worked until they got married, and then once they got married, it was just me and my other four sisters, and I wanted to help my mom out a lot, so my sisters would work at the laundry, and I worked cleaning houses, because I was too young to work at the laundry.
Muñoz:  Okay, we’re gonna go back to the church, and the next question on the church was going to be on traditional weddings.  How would you describe a traditional wedding at the time you were growing up?  Or if you saw your older sisters get married, kind of describe what that was like.
Garcia:  The first thing they would do is that the boys’ parents would come and ask for my sister’s hand in marriage.  And then if my dad would approve, then they would have the ... what do you call it?  At the church.
Muñoz:  A rehearsal?
Garcia:  No.  Las mandas.
Muñoz:  I don’t even know what that is, las mandas.
Garcia:  Anyway, it’s an announcement, at the church.  And they did it for three Sundays.  And after that, they would be able to get married.
Muñoz:  Why would those announcements be announced at the church?
Garcia:  To let people know that there was going to be a wedding, and that it was approved by the priest.  And then they would go and....  I never knew that they had to go and talk to the father.  Maybe they had to, I don’t know.  I know I did.  But my sisters, when they got married, the parents of the boy would pay for the dress and for the flowers and everything, and my parents paid for the food.  And the wedding party would pitch in and pay for the hall and the band, to have a wedding dance.
Muñoz:  So comparing it to today’s, is it the same?
Garcia:  No, not at all.
Muñoz:  It’s different, huh?  How different would you say?
Garcia:  I guess it’s because they want too much, and it’s too expensive to be in a wedding nowadays.  Then, like when my sister got married, one of 'em had everybody in white dresses and a little hat with a white gardenia.  That was her.  And my other sister had what they called a rainbow wedding, where each one had a different colored dress.  I’ve got her picture here, but it’s in black-and-white.
Muñoz:  So we won’t be able to see the rainbow color.
Garcia:  No.  I’ll tell you which colors.  (laughter)
Muñoz:  And the baptismals, what would you say baptismals were like?
Garcia:  My mother baptized two or three of her grandkids, that I can remember.  They would go to the church and baptize the babies, and then they would come home and they would have like a party.
Muñoz:  So what’s a traditional meal that they have for a baptismal?
Garcia:  I don’t remember.
Muñoz:  Molé?
Garcia:  That was for weddings.  (aside about car horn)  That’s what my mother had for my sister’s wedding.
Muñoz:  The molé?
Garcia:  Uh-huh.  They had molé, beans, rice, and homemade tortillas.
Muñoz:  (laughs)  You say that like there’s too many store-bought tortillas these days, huh?
Garcia:  And her famous Mexican chocolate.
Muñoz:  Oh, she made her own chocolate?
Garcia:  Uh-huh.
Muñoz:  Do you know the recipe?
Garcia:  No, and I’m sorry that I never wrote it down.  But I watched 'em make it, so I know more or less what goes into it.
Muñoz:  Cocoa beans?
Garcia:  She used to make it out of the plain Hershey bars, melt that, and then it had sugar and cinnamon, and she would roast almonds and grind 'em up with the sugar, and then she would make the Mexican chocolate.  And it was so good.  It was really good.
Muñoz:  I bet.  Okay, the music then for the wedding was a local band?
Garcia:  Yeah.  Felice Crowder was the piano player at the time.
Muñoz:  Felice Crowder.  I always hear her name come up.
Garcia:  But I don’t remember the rest of the band.  I know my brother-in-law belonged to a band in Williams, and the band was called the Nighthawks, I believe.
Muñoz:  Yeah, I’ve heard that name, the Nighthawks.  As a matter of fact, I think my Uncle Geronimo played in the Nighthawks, Geronimo Sanchez.
Garcia:  Really?  His name is Lito Cardenas, but they call him Lito.  And he played....
Muñoz:  You know what, I think I’ve seen some photos, and I think there’s some unidentified musicians there.  I’m going to bring a copy so you can see it, and see if you can identify those.
Garcia:  Okay.
Muñoz:  Okay, the next [question] is on entertainment, movie houses.  You worked at the Orpheum Theater, and what other entertainments?
Garcia:  The skating rink.
Muñoz:  Where was that located?
Garcia:  It was where Northland....
Muñoz:  Country?  Okay, the clinic, okay.  And dances?
Garcia:  Oh yes, there was a lot of dances then, and I loved dancing.  Where the Furniture Barn is, it was the old armory.  They used to have the best dances there.  I went to a lot of dances there.
Muñoz:  So were you single at the time you were dancing?
Garcia:  Oh yes.  I started dancing since I was about thirteen years old, because I was supposed to be fifteen!  And I’ve loved to dance ever since.  And it’s funny, but when I met him, I didn’t like him, because he looked too white for me.  I thought he was an Anglo.  And at the time, you weren’t allowed to go out with whites.
Muñoz:  Well, I’m telling you, if you got hit at South Beaver School, I guess she kind of put a big impression on you not to....
Garcia:  And you know who broke the barrier?
Muñoz:  Who?
Garcia:  Tony Gabaldon.  He married Jackie Skypes [phonetic].  And he was the one that didn’t give in, boy.
Muñoz:  Do you remember Tony growing up?
Garcia:  Yeah.
Muñoz:  Did you go to school with him?
Garcia:  No, my sisters did.  But later on, when I was working at schools, [serving] lunch, he would be there, and we would just start talking.  Then he married a lady that was a nun, and she got out of the nunhood to marry him.
Muñoz:  Is that right?
Garcia:  Uh-huh.  And they were really happily married for a long time.  Then he passed away.  The girls really liked her.  As a matter of fact, she was my youngest son’s catechism teacher.  And do you remember Sister Rosalina?
Muñoz:  Uh-huh.
Garcia:  Well, she was her friend.  I can’t think of her name though.
Muñoz:  Sister Rosalina was one of my sister’s ninas for communion or confirmation or something.  Okay, so Depression, you weren’t born, you were born after.
Garcia:  I was born during.
Muñoz:  So did you experience anything during that time?
Garcia:  I can’t remember.  The only thing that I can remember, being a little girl, young girl, was that they had a dairy at NAU.
Muñoz:  Okay, NAU was the teachers’ college?
Garcia:  Yes.  And they had a dairy farm there, and they would give milk to everybody.
Muñoz:  Take a can [unclear].
Garcia:  Uh-huh.  And we would go over there and get free milk.
Muñoz:  How many of you would go-one or two?
Garcia:  My mother would send all three of us, the three youngest ones, my sister Mary, myself, and my brother.
Muñoz:  And the cans that you used were....
Garcia:  It was a little can like that, and it had a handle and a lid.  It’s like the cans the lard comes in.
Muñoz:  The manteca, uh-huh.
Garcia:  But it was all tin.  These ones are plastic.
Muñoz:  So that’s it, that you remember at that time?  What else do you remember?
Garcia:  I don’t remember anything....
Muñoz:  Did you ever feel like your family felt it?  No work or....
Garcia:  I don’t think so.  My dad always had a job at the mill, that I could think of.  I don’t remember ever being hungry because we had our own animals, chickens and stuff like that.  Other than that, I don’t remember too much about the Depression, because I was born during the Depression.
Muñoz:  But you never heard stories, them telling you, or your mom sharing with you?
Garcia:  Uh-uh.
Muñoz:  Let’s go to Prohibition, bootlegging days.  Josie, you’re laughing!  Did you participate?
Garcia:  No!  I didn’t, but I had family that did.
Muñoz:  Do you know their stories?
Garcia:  My dad and a friend of his, they used to make whiskey.  As a matter of fact, he told me that the still is at the Pioneer Museum.
Muñoz:  That was his still?
Garcia:  Uh-huh, and I still haven’t been able to go over there.  Every time I go, it’s closed.  So I’ve gotta go over there.  And he told me what to look for, so that’s why I want to go and see if it’s his.
Muñoz:  So he made mula huh?
Garcia:  Uh-huh.
Muñoz:  So did he ever get in trouble, did he ever get caught?
Garcia:  They never did, that I knew of.
Muñoz:  Did he make money off of it, or was....
Garcia:  It was just for him and his friends, as far as I knew.  I don’t know if he sold it to his friends.
Muñoz:  So was it out in the woods, that still?
Garcia:  No.  You know where the rescue mission is?
Muñoz:  Uh-huh.
Garcia:  That’s where his friend lived, and that’s where they used to....  Oh boy, I’m getting a lot in trouble!  (laughter)  They’re all dead anyway.
Muñoz:  See, you don’t have to worry!  (laughter)
Garcia:  That’s where they used to make it, in the house that was there.  What was his name?  Benito Cortez?
Muñoz:  Oh, like Bluejay?
Garcia:  [In that family. (?)]
Muñoz:  Okey dokey.  So it was on [unclear].
Garcia:  Uh-huh, it was.
Muñoz:  Did you hear anything about the red light district on the streets?
Garcia:  No.
Muñoz:  Never ever?
Garcia:  Uh-uh.
Muñoz:  And when you were growing up, you don’t remember a house on San Francisco Street?
Garcia:  Yes, when I was growing up.
Muñoz:  See, I knew I’d catch you right there.  And where was that house located?
Garcia:  Paso del Norte.
Muñoz:  Did you ever know of the one right across from the church?
Garcia:  No.
Muñoz:  You don’t remember Bertha Gutierrez?  
Garcia:  Uh-huh.
Muñoz:  Remember where she used to live?
Garcia:  Uh-huh.
Muñoz:  I had someone tell me that for many, many, many years back, that was one of the houses.
Garcia:  Oh really?!  You mean the Mexican church?
Muñoz:  Uh-huh.
Garcia:  Okay.
Muñoz:  The Mexican church.  [unclear] church [unclear]
Garcia:  It was....  I can’t think of the name.  Protestants.  And all of the Barrerras family belonged to it-the ones that lived catty-corner from my mom.
Muñoz:  Barrerras?
Garcia:  Uh-huh.  You remember Romy Sedillo?
Muñoz:  Yeah.
Garcia:  Her family belonged to it.
Muñoz:  Yeah, actually she had a story in the newspaper about that church.
Garcia:  Yeah.
Muñoz:  And David Estrada belonged to that church too.
Garcia:  Uh-huh, and he became a Catholic, David did.  And then the Juarez, her fiancé was a Protestant.  And when he wanted to marry the Juarez....  She passed away.  I can’t remember her name.  She worked with me at the County.  Anyway, he converted to the Catholic Church.
Muñoz:  From the Baptist Church?  Ah.  Okay.
Garcia:  And they married and they had about three boys, I think.
Muñoz:  So what can you tell me about the Paso del Norte?
Garcia:  That there was a lot of gambling going on, and there was a lot of women.
Muñoz:  Would they say what kind of women?  I mean, were they of any strong ethnic group?  Were they all [unclear]?
Garcia:  The only way that I could remember, they were all....
Muñoz:  You know, do me a favor.  Okay, let’s say Paso del Norte, what was next to Paso del Norte?
Garcia:  It was a little pool hall.
Mr. Garcia:  Charlie Escoto.
Muñoz:  Charlie Escoto was across the street, so next to Paso del Norte there was a pool hall?  Or was there a bar?
Garcia:  Well, it was a bar and pool hall.
Muñoz:  Okay, and then next to that?
Garcia:  It was a restaurant.  It was called....
Mr. Garcia:  On the corner?
Garcia:  No, Honey.  The White Owl Café.  You remember that one?
Muñoz:  No, I don’t remember that one.
Garcia:  It was there, and then they moved it more this way.  And right next to that café estaba el barbershop de los Cancinos.
Muñoz:  Okay, so you’re going a little further up San Francisco, yeah.  Okay.  Because across the street from where Charlie Escoto....  No, Liberty Pool Hall, that’s the one I remember.  Liberty Pool Hall, then you had the de Miguel’s restaurant.
Garcia:  Diner.
Muñoz:  Or the diner.
Garcia:  That was across the street.
Muñoz:  Okay.  And then there’s an alley, and right next to that it was what?
Garcia:  Griego’s [phonetic] Tavern.  It’s always been there.  And the very first Mexican restaurant that I can remember was called Spanish Inn, and it was where El Charro is now.
Muñoz:  Oh, was it called Spanish Inn before Charro?
Garcia:  Uh-huh.
Muñoz:  Who had that?
Garcia:  I think their last name was....  Oh God.  I’m thinking Montongo [phonetic], but I don’t think it was that.  It was an older couple.  And I remember that because my mother wasn’t allowed to work out of the house.  They asked her to make tortillas for the restaurant, and that’s what she would do, make the tortillas for the restaurant, and the tamales.
Mr. Garcia:  The Tourist Home.
Muñoz:  That was further up.
Garcia:  Uh-huh.
Muñoz:  We’re talking about where the El Charro was.
Garcia:  That wasn’t El Charro when I was growing up.  It was called the Spanish Inn.
Muñoz:  Okay, so your dad was into bootlegging.  The medicine:  describe the home remedies that your mom used.
Garcia:  She used to let us use the aruda.  Have you ever heard of that?
Muñoz:  I’ve heard of it, but what is it for?
Garcia:  It’s for earaches.  You get a leaf of the aruda and you.... 
Muñoz:  That’s a plant?
Garcia:  Uh-huh.  And you don’t see it anymore.  I don’t know what happened to it.  But she would get aruda and get olive oil and squish the leaf into the olive oil and then wrap a cotton with the olive oil and leaf and put it in your ear, and you get rid of your earache.  And the mint, she would make it as a tea for stomach ache.  And foleo, she would do it for when the babies were real grouchy and cranky, you know.  And it would put 'em to sleep.
Muñoz:  Colic, huh?
Garcia:  Uh-huh.
Muñoz:  And any others?
Garcia:  I remember when we were small that we couldn’t afford a doctor, my mother would make us our own cough medicine out of onions.  She would put them on top of the shelf that the wood stoves had, and she would put sugar and a little bit of water and let it make into a syrup, and that’s how we would get rid of our coughs.
Muñoz:  Wow, I guess sugar and onions would be okay, huh?  (laughter)
Garcia:  I guess that’s why I don’t like onions!  And then like for tonsils, they would put tomatoes for our tonsils.  My dad, like I said, would get that for....  What’s that one for sugar diabetes?  Oh dear.  Now it’s called sithiasaris [phonetic] but it’s got all the citrus little deals from the grapefruit, the orange, lemon, and lime and all that.
Muñoz:  Okay.  What doctors do you remember at the time when you were growing up?
Garcia:  I remember a Dr. Scott, and of course my favorite doctor, Dr. Sechrist [unclear] older.  Dr. Sechrist’s father.  He used to make house calls.
Muñoz:  So you remember him coming over, huh?
Garcia:  Uh-huh.
Muñoz:  Okay.  And those were my questions.  And you mentioned Mercy Hospital, and you mentioned Flagstaff Hospital.
Garcia:  Uh-huh.
Muñoz:  And curranderas, that’s my next question.  Did your family use curranderas?
Garcia:  Yes.
Muñoz:  And that would be....
Garcia:  Doña Gregoria.
Muñoz:  For what reasons would you call Doña Gregoria?
Garcia:  My mother called her one time for what they would call el ojo.
Muñoz:  You want to describe that?
Garcia:  She would come and they wouldn’t let us look, but I wanted to know what was going on.  And so I watched Doña Gregoria.  She went and got a fresh egg and put it in a little bowl, and then before she would put it on my little brother’s stomach, she rubbed some sort of oil on his stomach, and then she put the egg on his stomach.  And I’ll be darned if there wasn’t an eye on the yoke!  And he was cured.
Muñoz:  So what would you do with the egg?
Garcia:  Bury it.  They would bury it in the back yard.
Muñoz:  Interesting.  And that would be Gregoria.
Garcia:  Uh-huh.
Muñoz:  Okay, what do you remember about childhood illnesses?
Garcia:  The chicken pox, the (Spanish).
Muñoz:  That’d be measles?
Garcia:  Yeah.  And I remember that when I had 'em, my mother said, "Don’t you dare go get close to the door, because then they’ll go inside your body and that’s what they called shingles.  That’s what she told me.  So I was always afraid to be around-you know if they opened the door, I’d run!  That was the only time that I would never be around anybody.
Muñoz:  Okay, midwives.  Did you know any midwives?  Did any midwives come and assist your mom at all, or your sisters?
Garcia:  Uh-uh.  When my sisters married and they had their families, they were already in the hospital.  My sister Connie was in labor for thirteen hours with Pat.
Muñoz:  Wow.
Garcia:  So she had a very hard labor, but there was already hospitals when they started having their kids.
Muñoz:  So how did your mom come to know Doña Gregoria?  Through the neighborhood?
Garcia:  The neighborhood, uh-huh, because they lived right across the alley from us.  And the Maciases, la Señora Leonarda, Pasqual’s mom.
Muñoz:  Pasqual, uh-huh.  So the trust of the curranderas, I believe it’s from faith.  I mean, is that what you would believe, the curranderas are based on....
Garcia:  Faith.
Muñoz:  Okay, I’m going to folklore, and folklore would be based on la llorona for one.  So did you ever hear her?
Garcia:  He says we did in New Mexico.
Muñoz:  Oh, she’s in New Mexico?
Garcia:  As long as there’s water, she’s there.
Muñoz:  So where in New Mexico did you hear her?
Garcia:  In Silver City, wasn’t it, Hon?
Mr. Garcia: It was up here. The motel water was underneath.
Garcia:  [unclear]  When we were in that motel?
Mr. Garcia:  The motel was up here, and that little river, it would run underneath the motel.
Garcia:  And you can actually hear a woman crying.  That’s what he said that we heard, but I didn’t want to....
Muñoz:  You didn’t want to admit it, huh?  Okay.  Any other things that you would like to share?
Garcia:  Well, my mom would tell us about the time when she lived in Mexico, before she got married, that there was a lot of brujaria and all that, in Mexico.  She told us a story about one time that they got an owl-supposedly it was an owl.  They call 'em lechuza, and she was doing harm around their little village.  So I don’t know who told them to get four men that their names were Joseph, and form a cross on the road, you know.  And when she passed by, they caught her in the middle.  And when she flew by, it was an owl, a lechuza.  When she fell on the ground that the cross was on, it was a woman.  That’s the story that they brought from Mexico, but I don’t know if it’s true or not.
Muñoz:  That’s interesting.  Any other....
Garcia:  No, the only other thing that my mother told us was about when they bought their home in Mexico.  One of her sisters-I can’t remember her name-kept crying at night and being scared, so my grandma asked her what was wrong, and she said that she would see a candle, and she would be the only one that would see the candle.  So my grandma told her, the next time she saw a candle, to throw a shoe where she saw the candle.  So she did, and the next day they went to the spot where the shoe was, and there was money hidden underneath the boards of the house.  And when the owner found out-my grandpa and my grandma really lived there-but when the owner found out that they had found money underneath there, he claimed it.  He said it was his.
Muñoz:  So they gave it to him?
Garcia:  Well, at that time you had to do what you were asked, or you’d get killed for it.
Muñoz:  And this was in Mexico?
Garcia:  In Mexico, yeah.
Mr. Garcia:  Your mom’s brother was [unclear].
Garcia:  My mother had a brother that was a bishop in Mexico in the Catholic Church, and I didn’t know this until years after I had been married.  I went to visit my aunt, her sister, in El Paso, and I saw a big frame of a bishop.  And I told my aunt, "Tia, who’s that?"  And she said, "You don’t know?"  And I said, "No."  And she said, "That’s your uncle.  That’s my brother, and he was a bishop in Mexico."  But I never knew his name, and I don’t know....  Just my aunt was the only one that told me about it.  My mom never said anything.
Muñoz:  Maybe she didn’t know, huh?
Garcia:  I don’t know.
Muñoz:  I was going to ask you, when your dad was building your house on San Francisco, did he have any assistants?  Like Bruno Vasquez?
Garcia:  Uh-uh.  His brother, Agapito.  They helped each other build a house.  And they built the houses almost identical.  Now that my uncle’s house is still....  Well, Peter Hernandez’s son lives in it.  When he bought it, I asked him if I could go inside.  And I went inside, and it’s the same thing as our house used to be, with upstairs.  And my dad built the cabinets with the glass doors, and then little designs on the bottom, and that’s the way my uncle’s was too.
Muñoz:  So he’s kept it.
Garcia:  Uh-huh.  When my sister-in-law was going to sell the property, I told her, "Please let me know when you’re gonna sell it, so that I can talk to the person and see if I can get at least my dad’s cabinets," because that’s what my dad had built.  And I said, "They’re gonna throw it down anyway."  She never let me know.
Muñoz:  And did they throw 'em away?
Garcia:  They knocked down the house and they broke everything.  (phone rings)
Muñoz:  Okay, Josie, I’m done, unless you have any other stories you want to share.
Garcia:  That’s about it.
Muñoz:  Okay, I want to thank you for sharing.
Garcia:  You’re sure welcome.  And I’m so glad that I saw that.  That’s my mother when she was young.  And that’s her sister.
Muñoz:  This is her sister.  So that’s your mom.  How pretty.
Garcia:  That’s my mom at the house.
Muñoz:  What year?
Garcia:  They gave me these pictures, and none of them have the date on 'em.  And see this right here?  That’s her marriage license when they got married at the Nativity Church.
Muñoz:  Why Nativity?  Because that was the only one?
Garcia:  Uh-huh, at the time.  They hadn’t finished building Our Lady of Guadalupe.
Muñoz:  Did they get married at the house?
Garcia:  No, no, at Nativity.  They got married in....  Let’s see.
Muñoz:  You have to have all this memorized, Josie!  (laughs)
Garcia:  In 1920 they got married at Nativity.  And then in 1970 they celebrated fifty years.  And see, my uncle was older than my dad, and they were already married when my dad came over.  And there’s hardly any more Magañas left.
Muñoz:  Of that family?
Garcia:  Uh-huh.
Muñoz:  You mean the pioneers?  Yeah, the pioneers.
Garcia:  My brother passed away, and he had two sons that can carry the name Magaña-Robert.  You know him, he works over at....
Muñoz:  Isn’t he a painter?
Garcia:  He was.  He’s been really sick-Robert, Frankie.  And then Jenaro.  They’re the two that can carry the Magaña name.
Muñoz:  Wow.  But you had the Magaña neighborhood.
Garcia:  Oh God yes!