Oral history interview with Josie Garcia (part 1) [with transcript], April 27, 2007.

              NAU.OH.97.68.46A
164946
Josie M. Garcia (Part 1)
Interviewed by Delia Ceballos Muñoz
April 27, 2007

Muñoz:  My name is Delia Ceballos Muñoz, and I’m with Northern Arizona University, working on the Los Recuerdos project.  Today’s date is April 26, 2007, and the time is 2:29 p.m.  I am here, and I’m going to have Mrs. Garcia introduce herself.
Garcia:  Hi, my name is Josie M. Garcia, and my address is 3656 North Steves Boulevard in Flagstaff, Arizona.  
Muñoz:  And your date of birth?
Garcia:  June 9, 1933.
Muñoz:  And where were you born?
Garcia:  Here in Flagstaff.
Muñoz:  I’m going to ask you to introduce your parents’ names.
Garcia:  My mother’s name was Josephina Magaña, and my father’s name was Ysabel C. Magaña.
Muñoz:  And where were they born?
Garcia:  My father was born in Penjamo, Guanajuato, and my mother was born in Chihuahua.
Muñoz:  What brought them to the U.S.?
Garcia:  My dad and my uncles came when they found out about the mill being built, and then my uncle was already married, and my dad was still single, and about a year after he came to Flagstaff, he went and got my mom--but she had to come with a chaperone, so she had to bring her older sister with her.
Muñoz:  Did your dad have family here already then?
Garcia:  Just his brother.
Muñoz:  About what year was that when they arrived here?
Garcia:  Let’s see, he was twenty-one, and he was born in....  Oh gosh, I can’t think.  (consults notes)  I have that.  He was born February 3, 1885.
Muñoz:  When he came here to the United States, what type of transportation, or did he walk?  How did he get here, did he ever say?
Garcia:  He told us that he came by donkey and walked.
Muñoz:  Did he tell you the trail or how they came?
Garcia:  No.
Muñoz:  Did they come directly to Arizona, did he ever say?
Garcia:  The first stop was in Clevis [Cliffs], Arizona.
Muñoz:  Okay, and then he just directly came to Flagstaff?
Garcia:  Uh-huh.
Muñoz:  So their first employers, or when they first came here, were they employed?
Garcia:  They got a job--my uncles and my dad got a job right away at the mill.
Muñoz:  And that would be....
Garcia:  At that time it was owned by Mr. Dolan, but I don’t know the year.
Muñoz:  Alright.  That was the Arizona Lumber....
Garcia:  Arizona Lumber Company.
Muñoz:  Lumber and Timber.  Alright.  And that business was located where in town, do you remember?
Garcia:  Over there by where Holiday Inn is.
Muñoz:  Saginaw and Manistee.  Okay.  And what year was that when he came?
Garcia:  Oh, let’s see, he was twenty-one, so....  In 1906.
Muñoz:  So what type of job did he hold?
Garcia:  At the beginning they were building it.  All the employees that came from Mexico were helping them build the Saginaw.  And then they taught 'em how to....  I don’t know what they call it.  They used to call it the "little car."  He would sit on this car and it would just go back and forth cutting the lumber, on a little rail.  I remember seeing 'em, and they would bring the logs in from the lake right there, and they did everything by hand.  They had these big pitchforks, and then they would bring the lumber in, and then they would put it in this little car, and my dad would just go back and forth and it would be cutting the lumber for use.
Muñoz:  I’ll have to find out what that is called.  So did he always hold that position, or did he have varied....
Garcia:  He had various jobs, but I don’t remember the other ones.  Like I said, he would help around there, building.  So I don’t know what else.
Muñoz:  How long was he employed for the sawmill?
Garcia:  I believe....  He wouldn’t say his true age, so he was past the retirement age, and they finally made him retire, but he didn’t want to.  Every time I asked him how old he was, he was seventy-five (laughter) because he was fourteen years older than my mom.
Muñoz:  So when they did come, they weren’t married yet.
Garcia:  No, that’s why I said he came with my uncle, my uncle was already married--his older brother Agapito.  And then he sent for my mom, but she had to bring her older sister, which was married at the time.
Muñoz:  And who did she stay with when she came?
Garcia:  With my aunt.
Muñoz:  And what was your tia’s name?
Garcia:  Elisa Reyes.
Muñoz:  So he worked with Southwest?
Garcia:  Just the Saginaw.
Muñoz:  So he worked there for a long time.  Was your mother employed?
Garcia:  No, she never was.
Muñoz:  Where was your first home located?
Garcia:  At 504 South San Francisco.
Muñoz:  I love it when they know their address!
Garcia:  My dad started building that home, and by the time I was about, I guess, five or six, I started going to South Beaver School, and it was just one great big room, and he would keep adding onto it.
Muñoz:  To the house?
Garcia:  Yes.
Muñoz:  That house is above the Charro?
Garcia:  It’s past the Charro.  You know where NAU is?  Well, all that was empty, and when we lived there, we were allowed to have chickens, and my mom had chickens.  She had a goat and she had a cow, and she had some pigs.  And then she had her own vegetable garden in the back.
Muñoz:  How do you know I’m going to ask you all these questions?!  You’re doing good, Josie--you’re doing real good.
Garcia:  And that’s what we live off.
Muñoz:  Okay.  So the house was located in the Plaza Nueva, huh?
Garcia:  Uh-huh.
Muñoz:  Up on San Francisco.  Okay.  And that was your first home.  Describe your neighborhood to me.
Garcia:  At the time when we were living there, there was very few homes.  There was wooden sidewalks, and then they had the streetlights, but not very close together.  And then when they told my dad that he had to get rid of his well--because he had a well, almost all the people had their own wells--and when the water department, I guess--I don’t know, I don’t remember who it was--they told him that they had to close it up.  So my mother went and she threw her cook stove, her irons--because they said it had to be something heavy so they would cover, and then they could put the dirt on top.  She threw a lot of antique things that I wish I could go and get!
Muñoz:  That house no longer stands, right?
Garcia:  No, it was sold.
Muñoz:  Who lives there now?
Garcia:  Nobody.  Somebody bought it, and it’s just a vacant lot now.
Muñoz:  Do you remember some of the names of your neighbors?
Garcia:  Yeah, the one to my mom’s right, her name was Locaria Sanchez.  And on the left was Concha Abeyta.  And then from Concha Abeyta, it was Rosinda Serna, and then after her it was Amada Lomeli.
Muñoz:  Okay, I know Amada, and I know the Sernas, but the Sanchez....
Garcia:  They passed away a long time ago.  She used to have a boarding house.
Muñoz:  Where was her boarding house located?
Garcia:  Right next to my mom.  It was her house, and it was a two-story house, and then it was my mom’s house, and then Concha.  And she used to board the sheepherders when they came into town.
Muñoz:  I’m going to look at the two-story house at the corner of Ellery and San Francisco.  Jackson used to live in that house before, a long time ago.
Garcia:  I don’t know.
Muñoz:  Oh, you don’t remember?  Well, when we were growing up, that’s where he used to live anyway--Floyd Jackson.
Garcia:  Oh yeah!  That was his grandmother.
Muñoz:  So right next to that was that boarding house?
Garcia:  No, his grandmother was the one that owned that boarding house, Dona Locaria.
Muñoz:  Locaria de que?
Garcia:  Sanchez.
Muñoz:  Oh!  Okay.  So Floyd Jackson’s grandma.
Garcia:  I believe it’s his grandma.
Muñoz:  Okay, so you say there weren’t too many homes in the neighborhood yet at that time.  Around what year was that?
Garcia:  I was born in 1933, so there was very few homes.
Muñoz:  In 1938, when you remember, about five years old?
Garcia:  Uh-huh.  I remember walking to Babbitts’, and Babbitts’ was the one and only store that was in town.  And when you wanted meat, they had either a beef hanging, or deer, or bear--whatever you wanted.
Muñoz:  Oh, wild game--they sold wild game as well, huh?  Okay, so the kids in the neighborhood--how many kids?  A lot of kids?
Garcia:  My dad’s side and my uncle’s side, there was quite a few, because he had twelve.  My uncle and my aunt had twelve kids.  And my dad had eight.  And then the next door neighbor had....
Muñoz:  That was one whole neighborhood by itself!  With all the Magañas, huh?!
Garcia:  And it was so odd, because when they came and they started buying the property, my dad bought the property on South San Francisco; and then my uncle bought the one across the street from South Beaver School, on the corner.
Muñoz:  I remember, yeah.
Garcia:  And then his son bought the one on the other corner--Frank.
Muñoz:  Right.  Next to that round dome.
Garcia:  And then my other uncle bought the one across the street from South Beaver--Joe Magaña.
Muñoz:  So all the Magañas owned Leroux Street and Ellery Street, and San Francisco.
Garcia:  Yeah, more or less, at the time.
Muñoz:  Who did they buy it from, do you remember?
Garcia:  I have no idea.  I don’t have any idea.
Muñoz:  So talking about kids in the neighborhood, that would be all the Magaña kids, because between all of you guys that was the whole neighborhood, huh?  What type of games do you remember playing when you were growing up, Josie?
Garcia:  Kick The Can, and Hide And Seek, and Jacks.
Muñoz:  And the boys played the same kind of games?
Garcia:  They liked Kickball.
Muñoz:  And you answered the fact that your family had a garden.  What exactly did she have in her garden?
Garcia:  She had cilantro, onions, garlic, carrots, cabbage, beets, and sweet peas.
Muñoz:  Boy, that was pretty good, huh?
Garcia:  Uh-huh.
Muñoz:  And you had chickens and pigs, you said, that she raised--and goats.
Garcia:  Uh-huh.  And we used to have fresh eggs all the time.
Muñoz:  Okay, and you named the grocery store around you as Babbitts’.  Were there any other grocery stores?
Garcia:  No, that was the only one.
Muñoz:  You didn’t know of any other little grocery store that....
Garcia:  And it wasn’t a little one--that was....  You know where Joe’s Place is?  That’s where Babbitts’ Store was at the time.
Muñoz:  Where Joe’s place was.
Garcia:  Was, that’s right.
Muñoz:  You’re right, that’s where the Babbitts had their store.
Garcia:  And I also saved the newspaper of them, how they had the store then, compared to how it was.
Muñoz:  So you’re an archivist.  She saves things.  You do good!  Alright.  And you mentioned the type of things that they sold at the store, and you bought [salt?].
Garcia:  Like the materials--they had the materials.  They used to have the barrels of potatoes.  I liked going to the store with my mom, because at the time, everybody used to take their kids to the store.  The kids would mind then--it’s not like now.  But we would go to the store, and one of the Babbitts’ men would always give each of the kids a little bag of hard candy.
Muñoz:  That would be a reason to go to the store, to get free candy!
Garcia:  We didn’t go real often, but when we did, it was a treat for us to get free candy.
Muñoz:  And that was right over the tracks, so....
Garcia:  Yeah.
Muñoz:  Okay, so as you were growing up, the means of transportation that your family had at the time, did you guys own a car?
Garcia:  My dad bought his first car in 1950.
Muñoz:  Okay, and foods, like your favorite foods, your mom’s recipes, do you use them now?
Garcia:  Yes.  I like the way she used to make fideo and soups, and of course beans!
Muñoz:  Of course!  And what would your favorite be?
Garcia:  I liked the soups--beef soup, and vegetables.  She would put corn-on-the-cob and potatoes and beets and cabbage--everything.
Muñoz:  Seeing that she had chickens and pigs and stuff, did you ever participate in butchering any of these animals?
Garcia:  I never participated, but when my dad and the friends got together and they butchered a pig, I was....  They didn’t want me to see.
Muñoz:  You were observing.
Garcia:  But I wanted to see what it was like and how they did it.  And I saw my dad, how when they killed the pig, they got a heavy--it’s not a hammer.  What do they call it?  Mallet?
Muñoz:  A mallet, okay.
Garcia:  And they hit him on the forehead.  And then when he was dead, then my dad had some water boiling, and he put some lye, and he used gunny sacks, and put the gunny sacks in the lye, and then put it over the pig.  And when he would lift it up, all the hair was off the pig.  And then what didn’t come off, they’d get a big knife and just scrape it, and it was really clean.
Muñoz:  So it was ready for chicharones, huh?
Garcia:  Oh, you bet!  And my dad used to use everything.
Muñoz:  From the pig, not wasting anything.
Garcia:  Uh-huh.
Muñoz:  So were you there helping make the chicharones?  Would that be inside or outside?
Garcia:  Outside.  It was outside.
Muñoz:  Cooked outside?
Garcia:  Uh-huh.
Muñoz:  Wow.  So since he didn’t throw anything away, you used the tripas?
Garcia:  Yeah.
Muñoz:  Casings to make chorizo?
Garcia:  Yeah, and also the black....  I forget how it’s called.
Muñoz:  Morcia?
Garcia:  Morcia.  And they used to make that too.
Muñoz:  That would be blood sausage.
Garcia:  Uh-huh, and it was very good.
Muñoz:  You can say that!  I’ve not tasted it, but I don’t plan to!
Garcia:  When you’re around all that stuff, you either eat it, or you don’t eat.
Muñoz:  Right.
Garcia:  So we got used to it.  It was good.  It tasted similar to baloney now.  It didn’t have an awful taste to it or anything, because I used to watch 'em.  I always wanted to see how everything was done.  And I used to watch my mother clean the intestines and all that with boiling water.  Then she’d pass a little stick and clean it out really good.  And then she would put 'em out to dry.  And then after they dried, then she would fry 'em, and they were very good.  And they also used to make....  Oh my God, I can’t think of the names in Spanish!  Maybe you can think of it.  It’s the ones that are braided.
Muñoz:  Milk Duds?  They call them Milk Duds, I think that’s the name that I’ve seen--on the grocery store label anyway, yeah.
Garcia:  And they have to have the large, you know.  And then they braid it into the tripas.
Muñoz:  My mom used to make those, and I used to look at them, and I’m thinking, "Uh-uh!"  And I remember one time I poked a fork in it while it was cooking, and it squirted me!  (laughs)
Garcia:  So then you really didn’t like it!
Muñoz:  I didn’t want to eat it.  (laughs)
Garcia:  Everything was really good.  It was so neat, because people were so friendly and so helpful to each other.  If you needed help, you knew your neighbor would help you.  And across from us there was like a--I call it an alleyway.  And then the Vegas lived there--Tomas Vega--not my padrino, but the other Tomas Vega.
Muñoz:  Not Sophie Vega’s husband.
Garcia:  Yeah, that family.  And my padrino Tomas lived over here across the street from Frescas.
Muñoz:  Or the Perezes, where they have those greenhouses?
Garcia:  Yeah, but across.
Muñoz:  Oh, the yellow house.  Okay.
Garcia:  That’s where my padrino, Tomas Vega, lived.
Muñoz:  A long time.
Garcia:  And I met a la Señora Macias, and I met la mama de Sara Lopez.
Muñoz:  Gregoria?
Garcia:  Uh-huh, Gregoria.  I got to meet her.  Era currandera.
Muñoz:  Yup.  Did you see her picture in the exhibit?
Garcia:  Yes!
Muñoz:  Okay, let me ask you about cultural traditions that you remember.  You were talking a lot about the food, and like you said, that’s pretty common when you had that to eat at home.  So what cultural traditions do you remember practicing at home, that your mom and dad brought from Mexico [unclear].
Garcia:  Well, they used to really make a big deal out of the Cinco de Mayo.  She would make us a skirt with a sash, and it had the red, white, and green.  And they would make parades [unclear].
Muñoz:  That was Bestido de China?
Garcia:  No, the China Poblana has sequins.
Muñoz:  Oh, you’re right, it’s got an eagle.
Garcia:  My mother would make that out of satin.  She would make us skirts and a sash and a blouse--red, white, and green.
Muñoz:  You still have all of that clothing, right?
Garcia:  No.  I have it in my head, the pictures.
Muñoz:  Your  memory, yeah.
Garcia:  And I remember we used to have--there was so many things going on, and it was such a tiny town.  There was always something going on, some celebration.  I remember the Martinezes that lived on ’Frisco--do you remember them?
Muñoz:  Now wait a minute.  The Martinezes at the barbershop?
Garcia:  No, no, no, they were three girls, and they lived across the street from the Mier Store.
Muñoz:  Weren’t those Luna girls?
Garcia:  No.  They lived next door to the Lunas.
Muñoz:  No, I don’t remember the Martinez girls.
Garcia:  Anyway, they were real pretty girls, and they were always in the parades.  One of 'em I remember, she seemed to be the one that was always a queen for the parades, you know.
Muñoz:  You know, now that you’re saying that, I’m visually seeing her as one of the queens--that Martinez girl.  I’m trying to think of the name.  But I remember seeing a photo of it, yeah.
Garcia:  And then for the Fourth of July, of course for New Year’s at that time it wasn’t against the law, everybody would go out with their guns and kill the old air for the New Year.  And now you can’t, you know.
Muñoz:  Right.
Garcia:  And I don’t know how in the world nobody got hurt then.
Muñoz:  There wasn’t that many people.
Garcia:  That’s it!  I never thought of that!  But I remember my dad doing that, and the Vegas and everybody.  It was so neat, because like on my mom’s birthday or my birthday, all they did was bake a cake, and they knew that there was a birthday or some kind of a celebration, and my dad could play any kind of instrument, and all of a sudden there was a party with the neighbors.  I thought it was a fun time to live there.
Muñoz:  Did the party stay outdoors, or did it go indoors?
Garcia:  When I was a little older, they were inside the house.
Muñoz:  So you danced; was it a group of people that brought music?  Since your dad played the music, were there other people that brought their instruments?
Garcia:  Mr. Vega, I think, would play the guitar.  My dad would play the accordion, and my padrino Tomas I think he had a clarinet, if I’m not mistaken.  But boy, they used to have good times.
Muñoz:  What kind of music would they play?
Garcia:  From Mexico, I guess, like the jarave and paso dobles and all that, you know.  Polkas.
Muñoz:  So there would be dancing as well?
Garcia:  Yeah.
Muñoz:  So you had a big house so you could dance then, huh?
Garcia:  Yeah.
Muñoz:  So earlier you mentioned you went to South Beaver School.
Garcia:  Yes, I did.
Muñoz:  And when you went to South Beaver School, you said it was one room?
Garcia:  It was one room, and the teachers....  Well, I shouldn’t say it was a one-room, because I was in school and I remember the teachers, they weren’t very nice at the time.  It made me feel bad, because we wanted to learn English, and they would tell us that there was no Spanish speaking while we were in school.  We had to try and speak English all the time.  Then we go home and we try to practice at home, and my parents wouldn’t let us, because they didn’t understand.  So then we go back to school the following day, and our English was all broken, and they’d get upset with us.  I remember one time when they took me to register me for school, they asked me my mom’s name, so I told them.  And then they asked me for my dad, and I said, "Ysabel."  And she looked at me, "You already told me your mother’s name!"  I said, "That’s my daddy’s name."  And she said, "That’s a woman’s name!"  And I said, "Well, that’s my dad’s name, and he spells it with a ‘Y.’"  She just looked at me, and my dad looked at me, and he was wondering how come I was....  You know, I was upset because of the way she was talking to me.  So when we got home I told him, and he said, "Why were you sad?"  I said, "Because to me it was like she was making fun of your name."  That’s the way I felt.  And being a little girl, I didn’t think it was right for her to do that.  And I remember one time I told one of my friends something in Spanish, and the teacher called me to the front of the room, and she held my hand like this, and they had those rulers with the little like bronze edge.
Muñoz:  Okay, a strip of bronze?
Garcia:  Uh-huh.  And she hit me on the palm of my hand so that I wouldn’t ever do that again.  There’s a lot of things that I remember when I was going to school.  When I started in the higher grades, I really enjoyed school, and I loved school after that.  But when I was little and they just were too....  They didn’t understand us, and we didn’t understand them, and they just didn’t take the time to find out.
Muñoz:  They weren’t patient with you, to teach you the language.
Garcia:  Uh-uh, not at the time.
Muñoz:  I wonder how they figured they were going to teach you the language if they didn’t understand Spanish.  How did you end up communicating--with your hands?
Garcia:  Well, we had to learn, and they would stay there and be by your side and tell you you’re A-B-C’s, and you had to repeat them, and repeat them, until you knew them.  And then when we started learning English, they would tell us to put this word together with this word to make a sentence.  And that’s how we learned how to speak English.
Muñoz:  So Spanish was your first language.
Garcia:  Yes.  And when I had my kids and they went to school, I didn’t teach them Spanish, I taught them English.  I guess I still thought they were going to have the same problems I did.  So they can speak Spanish now, but at the time, I didn’t teach them.
Muñoz:  You chose not to.
Garcia:  Uh-huh.
Muñoz:  Because you went through a lot of trouble at school.  That was kindergarten, or first grade?
Garcia:  It was first grade.
Muñoz:  And all the way through what grade?
Garcia:  Eighth grade.
Muñoz:  In South Beaver?
Garcia:  In South Beaver.
Muñoz:  Wow.  Okay.  Do you remember your teachers’ names?
Garcia:  Yes.
Muñoz:  How could forget, huh?
Garcia:  Mrs. Herrigan [phonetic] is the one that was really mean.  And then there was Mrs. Kyle, Mrs. Miller--she was very nice--and Mr. Castro and Ms. Castro.  He was real nice too.
Muñoz:  Did Mr. Castro speak Spanish at all in school?
Garcia:  Not that I heard him.
Muñoz:  Oh, so it was all English.
Garcia:  Uh-huh.
Muñoz:  Hm.  Okay.  Who else?
Garcia:  What was his name?  He was very....  I can see his face, but I can’t remember his name.  Thomas!  The last name was Thomas.  He was kind of short.
Muñoz:  So the description you gave us about going to school and not knowing English and having trouble, was that all the way through the eighth grade, or gradually you picked up your English?
Garcia:  No, I picked up English right away--I guess because I wanted to learn so bad, and I wanted to be included in everything at school.
Muñoz:  I didn’t ask you this at the beginning, but how many were you in your family?
Garcia:  Eight.
Muñoz:  And you were number....
Garcia:  The last one.  Well, no, let me see, there’s Connie, Flora, Julia, [unclear], Mary, me, my little brother who passed away, and then my brother Robert, so there were eight--six girls and two boys.  But the youngest boy died when he was two.
Muñoz:  Did you have a role model when you were growing up?
Garcia:  My mom.
Muñoz:  What were the most impressive things your mom did that you remember following her as your role model?  
Garcia:  Because she could make almost anything out of nothing.  She would make us our Christmas gifts.  I remember one time that she gave us these rubber dolls, and she made the dresses and everything.  And when we got up the next morning for Christmas, I noticed that the dress had just a little spot of soot on it.  Not all over the dress, but just, you know.  And that was to make us believe that Santa Claus had come down the chimney.  And I think, you know, for a mother to take time to do all that....
Muñoz:  She wanted you to believe.
Garcia:  Uh-huh.
Muñoz:  Oh how great.
Garcia:  And then my dad would make cars for my brother out of those great big spools of thread.  He would carve 'em out of that.  We have a lot of stuff.  I still have some dolls that were made from dried apples.  And I tried to save that doll, and I had it up until....  Let’s see, I had all my kids by then--1963, I had my doll that my mom gave me for Christmas.  We had moved over there on Kendrick, wasn’t it, by the college?  And I had all the toys in barrel, and the kids, Mary Lou and Virginia and Anthony went to play with the Mesa kids.  Well, the kids came over and started playing with the dolls.  And one of them--I think her name was Rachel--took my doll that my mother had given me.  And I used to treasure that doll a lot.  So I went next door and I asked the grandma if I could have my doll back, and she said, "I don’t know which one it is."  And I told her, "Well I do."  And she wouldn’t give it to me.
Muñoz:  Oh my goodness!
Garcia:  I felt bad because I had had it all these years, and then for somebody to just take it, you know....  But I still remember the doll.  It was all rubber, and you could take the arms off if you wanted to, and the legs would come off, the head.  And it had the little curls carved into the head.  It was all rubber.
Muñoz:  I can remember seeing some of those too!  Okay, I want to ask about employment.  Did you hold a job when you were a young person?
Garcia:  My first job was cleaning houses.
Muñoz:  And who did you clean houses for?
Garcia:  I cleaned house for Mr. McQuarters, and Michelbach and Mrs. Slipher, and Knowles.
Muñoz:  What age were you at that time?
Garcia:  I was actually twelve, but they said for me to say that I was fifteen, because fifteen was the legal age to work.
Muñoz:  Who would you say that to?  Your mom would tell you to say that you were fifteen?  I see, okay, so that you could work.  Okay.  How did you get the jobs?  How did you apply for them?  How would you know about the jobs?
Garcia:  I just went one day to the store, to Babbitts’, and I overheard these ladies saying that she needed a person to clean the house.  So I told my mom, and she said, "You can’t do it, you’re only twelve years old."  And I said, "I can."  She said, "You’re going to have to add three years to your age."  So for the longest time, everybody thought I was three years older than what I was.  (laughter)
Muñoz:  So when you went to clean house, did they have things ready for you to clean the house, or how did that work?
Garcia:  They didn’t have the modern things that they have now.  Everything had to be done by hand.  I had to scrub the floors by hand, wax 'em, and then I used to have to wash and iron the clothes.  It consisted of everything that was in the house that had to be done:  wash the windows and the walls and everything.  And I would get paid five dollars a week.
Muñoz:  Five dollars a week for doing all that!
Garcia:  But back then, five dollars was a lot!  And then I had to give my mother four dollars, and I could keep a dollar.
Muñoz:  She was saving them for you, right?
Garcia:  I don’t think so.  She needed it too.  And I remember one year during the Fourth of July there was this old man selling necklaces with a thunderbird, that they made out of playing records or battery casings.  I bought it, and it was four dollars.  I went home, and oh, I was so proud of it.  I still have it.  I was so proud of my necklace, and I told Mom, I said, "Mom, don’t get mad, but I bought this necklace, and the next two weeks I’ll give you all the five dollars, until I make it up."  She just looked at me and said, "Okay."  There was nothing she could do, because I wasn’t going to take it back.  (laughter)
Muñoz:  So that was just a man on the street, selling?
Garcia:  Uh-huh.  For the Fourth of July it was really fun.  My mother would pack a lunch and we would go to the City Park and watch the rodeos.  And then before that we’d go to the parades and make a day of it.  It was a lot of fun.  I never knew, like nowadays it’s so different, the kind of fun the kids like.
Muñoz:  Oh yeah.  Those were clean funs.  There was lots of entertainment.  Now they have to find their own, or make their own entertainment.  Yeah, it is different.  Did you hold the same jobs in the summertime?
Garcia:  I did that for about four years, I think, and then after that I got a job at the American Laundry.
Muñoz:  With Stella?
Garcia:  Uh-huh, Stella Montoya.
Muñoz:  What did you do there?
Garcia:  I worked on....
Muñoz:  The spreader?
Garcia:  Uh-huh.
Muñoz:  The only reason I know, is because I did the same thing.
Garcia:  And then afterwards, they taught me how to package the sheets for the motel--twenty sheets in a package, and wrap 'em up and everything.  And then I got to do that.  When I first went, Stella asked me to iron shirts, and she showed me how, because she knew I had already done that at the houses, where I used to do the laundry and everything.  So she [unclear] the shirts.  And then after that she put me on that roller deal.
Muñoz:  Or the iron, where you pass it on the iron?  Or where you spread 'em on the roller thing, for the two ladies to pick it up and put it in the iron?  Which part?
Garcia:  I used to be the one that put it in, and the other ones would fold 'em.
Muñoz:  Okay.  So how much more money did you make there with Stella?
Garcia:  She paid us cash.
Muñoz:  She always paid cash!  There’s something wrong with that.
Garcia:  Because we didn’t have insurance.
Muñoz:  Oooh!  That’s why!  Every Saturday we’d get our little envelopes with our money.
Garcia:  In cash.
Muñoz:  In cash.  That’s crazy.  I always thought it was kind of weird she never paid us by check--she always paid us in cash.
Garcia:  And she never showed us our time sheets or anything.  You had to make sure that....  I would always write down my hours at home.
Muñoz:  I always thought she was an honest woman.  You’re a smart lady.  I don’t know, she probably took all my money!  I worked hard!  Okay, and then after you did the laundry, what else did you do?
Garcia:  I worked at the movie theater, at the Orpheum.  And then I worked at....  What else did I work at?  The laundry and the movie.
Muñoz:  And your age at the time, you were fifteen, but technically you were twelve.  And then when you worked at the laundry, how old were you then?
Garcia:  I was sixteen.
Muñoz:  This is your real age, sixteen?
Garcia:  Uh-huh.
Muñoz:  Okay.  Boy, so you’ve been working for a long time, huh?
Garcia:  Yeah.
Muñoz:  You’re retired now, right?
Garcia:  Yes!  (laughter)  At sixty-two.
Muñoz:  It was time to retire.  Okay, you mentioned discrimination, and that was at the school itself that you felt discrimination, because of the way they treated you at school.  How about growing up within the city, within the community, or your employment--did you feel that as well?
Garcia:  Well, the only ones that I can remember that were very real nice people to work for were the Knowles.  Mrs. Slipher was kind of....  I don’t know, she wasn’t mean, but yet she put you in your place.  You couldn’t go into the kitchen when they were eating.  And when they fed you, you had to eat by yourself in another room.
Muñoz:  Like where, in a closet?
Garcia:  No, off of the kitchen, off of the dining room or whatever you call it.
Muñoz:  So when you went to go work at her house, did you have to go to the back door, or could you walk through the front door?
Garcia:  The back door.
Muñoz:  Always?  They didn’t want you to come through the front door?
Garcia:  Uh-uh.
Muñoz:  I wonder why.
Garcia:  They probably thought I’d dirty it by coming in the front.
Muñoz:  But you were going to clean it anyway!  What difference did it make?
Garcia:  The only one that ever let me in the front was Mrs. Knowles.  And she would make lunch for me.  I wasn’t used to it, so at first I didn’t want to.  And she’d say, "You’re coming in and sitting down with us to eat.  It’s time for lunch."  She was a very nice person.
Muñoz:  Where was her house at?
Garcia:  Right here on Greenlaw.  And it was the only house at the time--there was nothing here but her house.  She had four sons:  Tommy and Charles and Bobby and Marshall.  Marshall Knowles.  Do you remember Marshall?  He was the youngest one.
Muñoz:  No, I don’t remember.
Garcia:  He used to have a lot to do with the rodeos during the Fourth of July.  And Tommy was a pilot.  Mr. Knowles was the senator, and at the time I didn’t even know that he was a senator, because he was so nice.  He didn’t....
Muñoz:  ... treat you differently?
Garcia:  Uh-uh.  They were the ones that made me believe in people again.
Muñoz:  When you say that--made you believe in people--one of your first experiences with a teacher, she really made you feel bad, huh?
Garcia:  Very bad.
Muñoz:  Like you didn’t belong there.
Garcia:  She wanted to know why we couldn’t speak English, if we wanted to be in the States.  I even had an argument with a nurse at the hospital when my mother was in the hospital.  She was trying to tell my mother something in English, and my mother didn’t understand, and I happened to walk in.  And she told my mother, "How long have you lived here and you don’t speak English?!"  And I walked in there and said, "How long have you lived here and you haven’t learned Spanish?  You should learn Spanish because there’s a lot of Spanish-speaking people and patients."  And she just walked past me.
Muñoz:  And that was what hospital?
Garcia:  Flagstaff.  Not the new one, but the older one.
Muñoz:  Yeah, on Beaver.  I’m sorry if this is taking you back.  I asked if you were born at home.  You mentioned you were born in Mercy Hospital?
Garcia:  No, I was born at the county hospital.
Muñoz:  And you were going to say you don’t remember who the doctor was, do you?
Garcia:  [No.]
Muñoz:  Okay, so now I’m going to switch back into the discrimination in the school, employment, or community.  And you described it with the Knowles, the people that treated you best of all your employers.  Okay, now I’m going to ask you about community celebrations.  You brought up a lot about the Fourth of July, so it must have been a pretty impressive thing for you as you were growing up.
Garcia:  Yes, uh-huh.
Muñoz:  Any other celebrations?  You talked about Cinco de Mayo.
Garcia:  Cinco de Mayo and the Fourth of July were about the only ones that were celebrated at the time.  I even have pictures of the old Fourth of July.
Muñoz:  Down the street, these guys, yeah.  What year was that, in the sixties?
Garcia:  I don’t know.  I should have put dates on them, and I didn’t.
Muñoz:  You know, that’s something....
Garcia:  Because that’s the Patio Café, look, right there.
Muñoz:  Yeah, something that [unclear] probably has not seen, the old....  But I’m sure you’ve seen other pictures.  How about Easter?  Did you guys celebrate Easter?
Garcia:  Yes.
Muñoz:  What was that like?
Garcia:  It was a lot of fun.
Muñoz:  Did you have, during Lent....  That’s another question too, Lent, las comidas during Lent.
Garcia:  Oh yeah, my mother used to make shrimp with egg.
Muñoz:  Camaron.
Garcia:  Uh-huh, and capirotada. What was the other one that she used to make?  I know that we would have fish, and what other things?
Muñoz:  Nopales?
Garcia:  Nopales.  My mother used to make nopales and verdolagas [phonetic].
Muñoz:  That is so wild!  Only because I went walking with Carlotta Montoya one time and as we were walking, she picked up this weed--what I thought was a weed--and she goes, "No, these are good.  This is like wild spinach."  Is that correct?  But I’ve never tasted it.
Garcia:  They’re very good.  You wash 'em and you fry 'em and they’re good.  My dad used to take us over there by....  Oh gosh....
Mr. Garcia:  Towards Winona.
Garcia:  Towards Winona and pick....
Muñoz:  (inaudible)
Garcia:  Well, we’ve been married fifty-five years, so I guess he knows a lot about me and my family!
Muñoz:  Okay.  Also with that, did your dad go to the forest to look for herbs?
Garcia:  Yes.
Muñoz:  So he knew his yerbas, so to speak, huh?
Garcia:  Uh-huh, and he would bring 'em....  He taught me what herbs were for what.
Mr. Garcia:  Hongos.
Garcia:  Mushrooms.  And he would go deer hunting also, and for Thanksgiving kill a turkey.  And he used to bring those....  Now they’re all over the place, but at the time it seemed like it was so bare, that it looked like it was so far to go get those weeds. It’s the ones that have like a little yellow flower on the top.
Muñoz:  Manzanita?  No.
Garcia:  And when you cut it, it looks like it’s got milk inside.
Muñoz:  Dandelions?
Garcia:  Yeah.
Muñoz:  I have a lot of 'em!
Garcia:  But they were the big ones, and they have like a little button, and we used to press them together to play with, and my dad said that that was good for when you were hurt and if you were swollen.  And then there was one that they called it la yerba del zorrillo.  Have you ever heard of that one?
Muñoz:  You know what, I’ve heard of it, and I’m trying to think what they used it for, but it doesn’t come to my mind.
Garcia:  It’s real chinita, and it grows about that high, and it’s red, and it doesn’t stink.  Why they call it like that, I don’t know, and it smells pretty.  It smells like peppermint and all that.  It doesn’t stink.
Muñoz:  It’s interesting you say that, because there’s something like that, that I always pull out of my yard.  I live out there by Sheep’s Hill, so that’s still kind of wild country, and I always pull that out, because it does have a fragrance and I don’t care for it because it bothers my sinus.  But that could be it, huh?  I’ll have to show it to you one day and see if that’s what it is. Also, I didn’t ask you, how did you celebrate Christmas?
Garcia:  We had like a little get-together, the family.  When my sisters were married, they would come.  They lived in Williams, and they would come to Flag for Christmas and we would celebrate Christmas.  My mother would always let us open a gift at midnight.
Muñoz:  How about tamales?  Did you make?
Garcia:  She would always have to make tamales and corn tortillas.  And I was telling my husband, when I started making tamales, "Thank God I don’t have to go through the trouble my mother had to."  She would buy the corn and boil it and boil it until it was soft, and then she had a grinder.  We would take turns, me and my sisters, grinding the corn for her to make tamales and tortillas.
Muñoz:  That was a lot of work!
Garcia:  Uh-huh.  And finally my dad, I don’t know how he found an old washing machine motor, but he hooked it up to the grinder, and I’ll be darned if that thing didn’t work!  Boy, I was so happy!  I didn’t have to do it by hand anymore.  My sister still has it.
Muñoz:  How interesting.
Mr. Garcia:  Which one?
Garcia:  Flora.
Muñoz:  Okay, now, going to church, what church did you attend?
Garcia:  I have to admit, Our Lady of Guadalupe.
Muñoz:  And I know you showed me the photograph of postareles.
Garcia:  Uh-huh.
Muñoz:  Do you know the story behind the postareles?
Garcia:  I remember that when they were gonna celebrate that, they were looking for a woman to play Our Lady of Guadalupe, so they picked my sister Julia.  I don’t know if you remember her.
Muñoz:  Uh-uh.
Garcia:  She was kind of dark.  They dressed her up like the virgin, and they had the program underneath Our Lady of Guadalupe.  And they had something that was like a round [gill?] that she would appear in, and then they would pull her up and she would be gone.  And one of the--I remember this, and I was young--she came out, and she had her hands like that, and I noticed she had a ring on.  And I told them that my sister had a ring on, so when she came back out, she didn’t have the ring.  (laughter) But it was so much fun, and going to catechism the sisters were really nice, and I really enjoyed going to catechism and going in the month of May to take flowers to the virgin.  We used to take flowers from our garden.  My mother used to have a beautiful garden, and I used to take flowers in the month of May when I was younger.
Muñoz:  And Our Lady of Guadalupe is still located where it’s located now?
Garcia:  Yes, uh-huh.
Muñoz:  How about cemeteries?  How many cemeteries have you known that Flagstaff has had?
Garcia:  I know the one, the Catholic one.  When my mother was still living, I think that they removed some of the graves to make it bigger or something like that, and my mother was very upset because they didn’t let them know.
Muñoz:  Oh, the church didn’t let the people know.
Garcia:  Uh-huh.
Mr. Garcia:  [unclear]
Muñoz:  Father Lindenmeyer?
Mr. Garcia:  Lindenmeyer.
Muñoz:  Yeah.  Okay, how would you describe rosaries or wakes?  And were they at home?
Garcia:  When my little brother died, they still had 'em at home.  They would have the coffin and have the two candles, and then they would pray the rosary at home, and all the friends would come to the house.  And then they would have chocolate or coffee and sweet breat that my mother would make.
Muñoz: Pan Mexicano she made?
Garcia:  Uh-huh.  My mother made everything.  That’s why I....  That’s why she was my role model because she knew how to do everything, it seemed.  She had to learn.  She was eighteen when she married my dad.
Muñoz:  And he was fourteen years older than her?
Garcia:  Uh-huh.  And he never wanted to admit it.  That’s why he didn’t want to say how old he was.  This is them when they had their first child.  That ribbon is my sister’s head.
Mr. Garcia:  (Spanish)
Garcia:  No.
Mr. Garcia:  [unclear]
Garcia:  Yeah, but they’re separated.  And this is my family.  You remember my brother Robert?  He was a painter.
Muñoz:  That’s the one that’s married to....
Garcia:  Lucy.
Muñoz:  Lucy.  Yeah, I remember him.
Garcia:  He passed away quite a few years ago.  She passed away three years ago.
Muñoz:  That’s a large family when you think about it--eight.
Garcia:  Uh-huh.
Muñoz:  Okay the funerals, at that time you had them at home when you were growing up.  Do you know whoever made the coffins?
Garcia:  I sure don’t.  The only coffin that I ever saw was my little brother’s, and then they took a picture of him in the coffin, and they gave it to....
Muñoz:  And the mortuary, where was it located, do you remember?
Garcia:  It was....  Let me see if I can get my directions right.  I’m thinking it was someplace behind the big Babbitts’ Store, around that area.
Muñoz:  Okay, by Monte Vista?
Garcia:  Right around there, I believe it was.  This is my mom’s house.
Muñoz:  On San Francisco.  Yeah, I remember this house.
Garcia:  That’s my mom’s house.
Muñoz:  So where Lucy and Robert lived was kind of the area where your mom lived?
Garcia:  They lived in the back of my mom’s house for eighteen years.
Muñoz:  This is on San Francisco.
Garcia:  And then after that, they bought the home where she lives now.  See, this is my little brother.
Muñoz:  Oh, he passed on, yeah.  Mira.
Garcia:  He was two years old.  He was born before Bobby.
Muñoz:  ’37, huh?  Okay, we have three minutes, and I still have gone only--I’ve got maybe two or three questions on the church, and then after that I was going to ask about....
Peter Runge:  Want to stop and reload the tape?
Muñoz:  Yeah, we’ll do that.  (pause)