Transcript of oral history interview with Emmett Tso and Lee Begay [with transcript and Navajo text], 1974.

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Call number: NAU.OH.74.2.6
Collection name: James Biglin
Narrators: Emmett Tso and Lee Begay.
Interviewed by Unknown person
Interviews conducted in Navajo and English
Date of interview: 1974
Place of interview: Tuba City, Arizona
Translated and transcribed by Bahe Katenay 2
NOTE: The first interview was conducted in the Dineh (Navajo) language and is a translation. The second interview is a transcription.
EMMETT TSO INTERVIEW
Interviewer: …Will speak to us, here. ‘What in the Navajo way of life do you think is the most important for your child to know?’ [in English] That being asked and we will hear now from a gentleman, Emmett Tso. He has just gotten back from work when I arrived to visit him. I had tried several times to visit him but ‘he always busy’ [in English], and he shall now talk to you. Emmett Tso.
EMMETT TSO: Thank you, certainly. This is about what was just stated [asked], how will it be that the Dineh way of life can remain, or that we all favor our children to know about that, and I do think it should be that way, too. The discipline of our ritual ways, our oral traditions, stories of the men folk, and the Way of the Dances [!1lii’l]. These have been, from far back in time, carried down by our men folk, our grandfathers and grandmothers. These have also directed their livelihood which was maintained alongside to be known as an appendage way of life. Today, we are exiting out of those ways and that is what it has become. This is so evident that everyone is stepping out of that. To think about it further, we are known as the ‘Indians’ by the B11l1’g11n1’ [Anglos or white people], and someday we would have left our rituals and our oral histories.
The histories which began at the Place of Emergence then, there was When the Mountains Became Disorderly and They Smoked. Our oral histories have maintained this legacy since. Then there were times when the oceans covered the earth which was followed by The Emergence. This is how the men folk once told of the histories and as we learn about it, the chronology of the stories. There are however no printed materials about all this. There have only been the oral transmissions, transmissions that were made strong. They were considered to be sacred stories, too, because they were told in a sacred manner which involved a plea (to the deities). There are beliefs of many holy beings and places of sacredness. It was told of holy beings within the mountains or within the heavens. Then there are the holy ones dwelling among us here on the surface of the earth. The invisible ones and we live among them but we do not realize this. The B11l1’g11n1’ does not realize this as well.
Why do we pray during the morning twilight? Why is it that to the H11sh’j44y11[7’t’iieh’ [Talking God] we sprinkle-forth the white corn meal? Why to the J0h0]11’44’ [Barrier of Daytime meaning sun] at midday we offer prayer with the Corn Pollen? Why is it that to the N11h0t’s0ii’ [Horizontal Orange Spectra meaning evening twilight] after sunset we make prayer offering of yellow corn meal? Earnest requests we make in this way for our wishes, for goodness of peace and balance [b44 H0zh0n’] on this earth upon which we live. ‘Earth, our mother’ we say and ‘Great Darkness, our great-grandmother’ we say, too. And to all those to whom we are grandchildren are called upon in their name as we offer our earnest requests. Thus it is truthful and it is most precious when it is told that at morning dawn there are the arrivals of the holy 3
ones. There has to be the offering of prayers to them, and at noontime and at after sunset as well. This is what it means to have our oral histories be accompanied with sacredness.
Now, ‘what do you think the children should know and should be taught?’ Well there are still some men folk left that have knowledge of the Beauty Way. It can be so clear about the way of living that has instructions attached to it, and that is how they can tell it, perfectly, just like seeing it visually. There are the many rituals of our ways and some have the Way of Dances, and there are the restoration ways which is a separate ritual entity. Then there are those only utilized in winter like the Night Way [C[’44’ J77’]. These histories (of the sacred stories) can also be told around mid-winter time and are told with array of extensions [11[7’ts’33’11b1h11’]. The mid-summer time also mark a time for story telling for certain ways, too. These we have no knowledge for anymore. There was the Ritual For Moisture Way [}7lt’s33 b77 K11 N11h11gh1’], but then there are other certain practices of much poorer value that should not be re-learned.
These kinds of oral histories which life is dependent on should be learnt. The purpose for this is because it can be questioned that ‘why is it not being sacred or blessed?’ Then for that reason there will be a gentleman conducting the making-of-crystal ritual [D44s7’t’iih Iil44 d0h’], there might be a lady or gentleman conducting hand-trembling ritual [}7d77lnii d0h’], and thus how does one’s arm able to inform them or how do they do it? Others may also question if that is just fake or is it just a random act? This way of thought I once had and I use to not believe in this. I believed it was all lies and that they faked it. However, I was able to witness firsthand the rituals being performed and its outcomes, and I understood that they were real.
Now our children must acquire knowledge about the Beauty Way of Dineh stories and along with this, the (moral) instructions that encompass these teachings.
Other important rituals are like those for restoration [for personal balance and wellness]. There are examples like the Sun’s Sand Paintings [J0h0]11’44’ b77 Iik11’], and the Tobacco Smoke [Dii’]1l7yee’h] that is for when one has a disorderly-behavior and this Smoke is done for them. There are the Offering of Precious Stones [}77’gl77z }7d11]il’], a Restitution to the Earth [N11h11’ T’s33’ b77 Y44l7’], to the rivers Restitutions are made, to the gases [air], to dark space [Y11d77l’ Yiil’], to the thunder [Ii’]77’], and the lighting struck place [)’0hs7’]ee’h]. So when one does considers these more deeply, we as Dineh should not in the future leave out from this way. The color of our skin will not be changed no matter how hard we may scrub it or bathe on a daily basis. We will still be Dineh.
This is why for our children there are the language and life passed down from some distance past, and this may have help us extend the growth of our population. ‘Some time in the future our peoples will extend their population growth’ was told by certain men folk. Their purposes for saying that had to do with what I mentioned about the ritual ways that included offerings of earnest prayers. And if we forget these: our ritual ways, the Dineh identity and the strength of what keeps us Dineh and so then, what intelligence would we still have? You see for the African 4
Americans [N11k1ii’ {7jii]ii] they are directly being identified as such and even from the Anglo perspectives as well. They are not referred to as a particular group of peoples with specific clans and a describable culture. So would we choose to be referred to as such when we have abandoned our ways? Would that be better for us fifty years or a hundred years from now? What will we be referred to as or will the Anglos mainly refer to us as, ‘Indians?’ We probably would be nothing but ‘Indians’, and beings without detailed ways of rituals that includes the attached origin stories. Our name will be simply, ‘Indians,’ like the African Americans being referred as ‘Blacks’ or ‘Negros’ [in English].
There has to be a foundation upon which something remains sturdy and upon which one maintains its stories of origins like what we had in the Time of Emergence. This has to be possessed in order to state who we are, we came from the earth –that ‘nature’ [in English] and thus this is our lineage. This makes a lot of difference, but then that is the reason why the B11l1’g11n1’ has hatred for them [assumed the Blacks] or hatred for other races. So in the future, will we be in the same situation after we have left our language and have left our instructions from the origin stories? Or else, will we be able to re-learn about our ritual ways and the Way of Dances, and if the schools can facilitate this kind of re-learning, would we not abandon it all? This Way has so many different variety dances and each with its own regalia.
There are those often mentioned like the Adjoining of Gatherings [Iiji’niid11’] and the Encircled Dark Tree Bows [&7[7’n11sh’jin’], and sometime they are taking place. That is one example that I am referring to. When those are being performed, that Way of the Dance [!1lii’l] requires strict styles for outfits, dance movements and the songs for them. If those types of studies related to the ritual dances were learned, this can reinforce our identity (as a nation) as well as identify our religious way of prayers and chants. If we are without these, then on what basis will it be established how we are to be recognized? When these are learned by our children and they are knowledgeable about most of this then they will truly have a self awareness. I have that awareness personally, ‘I ‘m proud that I’m a Navajo’ [in English]. All these areas of knowledge [pre-historical accounts and ways of rituals] that has fueled our progress is what I feel I have, and this is similar to what the B11l1’g11n1’ feel they have. They have their own self awareness as I have my.
And so if you were to be asked, ‘let’s hear you sing a song’ and you would immediately have a Beauty Way song to sing out. A brief Beauty Way song can be sang, but perhaps without the names (of sacred elements) and sung just straight forth using repetitive melodies. However, what if it was asked of someone ‘now sing ‘The Star Spangled Banner’ [in English],’and possibly one will only laugh about it. Or he/she may say ‘certainly, this is my song and it is a core hymn of our being,’ and they would begin singing it. And still he/she may still laugh about it but sing it abusively. Taking all the thoughts into consideration, this would be how it may be observed. We have chants and songs that streams throughout like about earth, the Beauty Ways, songs for the 5
mountains, and songs for the (tobacco) Smoking Way.
1 All the songs and chants were perfectly set to stream throughout and then placed there for us.
I have heard before about a quote, ‘it is not known where he/she may have arisen from or where the source of his/her journey is at.’ I know that I personally did not arise from some unknown place. I know that I have risen from within the Morning Twilight’s Cradleboard [H11y0[7’k11[7 b77 !1w44t’s11l7’]. Also there were the parhelia of the sun [Sh11’ b77 Cl’11jiilchii’] that the soles of my feet rested upon and I originated in that way. There was the travertine pedestal [H11d11whi]yee’] that laid across behind my head and in this matter, I grew. The rainbow [N11t’s44l7d’] arched over my forehead and the lightings [!1t’si]gl’sh7’] which streamed downward at both sides, right here, and which was used to bundle me up (securely). Also the ray of sunlight [Sh11’ b77 G[0l7’] lay down my front. The ‘Diverse Material Goods was used on either sides to enclose’ [Y0d77’11[7t’11s7’44h b77[ 11[7j99’11]1l7’88’] and to wrap me in. This is how I have come into existence, and I use this for my self-identity as well. Thus, ‘It is unknown where he must have arisen from,’ might be someone’s comment about me, but I will feel so sorry for them and shall pity them.
Furthermore, the rituals were performed over us already in that we have arisen out of the cradleboard. And for that way of coming to being, our words are to be without excrement [d0h’ ]iih11zh11’ d1’11ch22d11 meaning ‘our words are always of great value’]. Now I have presented to you all these and have expressed my thoughts in this matter. It has to be that our children must learn these and to our own children, these clarifications must be made to them and a certain amount of that must be maintained as their knowledge. ‘For what reasons am I Dineh’ is probably a question they ponder upon? ‘I should have been born with a white skin’ might be their way of regretfulness. Or that ‘I should have been born with a black skin and it might have been better.’ Certainly that is wrong.
The kinship and clan system, for instant like The Bitter Water Peoples and other various clans, one’s being is superior and that deserves the highest consideration, the ‘clan’ [in English]. Now there are marriages for the B11l1’g11n1’, for the Hopis and for other races. That I believe is very unlike [not acceptable] even though it is none of my business. It seems to me that could result with half of your child being poke fun at. Not really being laugh at but to be thought of like ‘it’s a disgrace’ [in English] as could be said. One is Dineh and should remain a Dineh and why would one want to be of another race? Then there is the situation where another race becomes your in-law and though there is a language barrier, there is the mystery of the feelings between both. It all remains silent and that is what is hard to accept. If you are accompanied to a different race in your home, there is probably a sense of low self-esteem. Having that self-esteem will
1 Songs and chants that ‘streams throughout’ is not an adequate translation. Sets of songs or chants of a particular purpose or Way make references to a beginning, mid-point and conclusion. i.e. A mountain song might begin with its divine features, then about one’s relationship or communing with it, and eventually a divine resolution between both beings. Thus the chant or song has made references to time, locations, events, and encounters.6
allow that, ‘my children will be Dineh, he/she will be this clan, those are the paternal side, the grandfather side, and that there will be clan-kinship and will address them accordingly.’
Those that will become half of another race like a ‘half-breed’ [in English] as they are called, and it will be uncertain as to how they would be addressed. The kinship way will just be about that individual and its perimeters will be limited. A Dineh will have their kinship relations [K’eh’] extended into larger unknown perimeters. One can meet a person who they never met before but with the exchange of clan information, clan-relations become clear as both proceed, and they now can address each other appropriately. As for another race, kinship relations are not clear and it would be difficult to tell them ‘you are related to me in this way.’ We who are Dineh need be careful with ourselves and into the future, the way of Dineh being kept continuously should be priority.
Now about the B11l1’g11n1’ and the N11b44w-‘h [another name for the Dineh] and how the differences are with both. The Anglo does not think in the way of the Dineh nor do they think like an ‘Indian’ [in English]. That is one reason why when the Anglos work on us [assimilating] it has a bad impact on us. We think very differently towards them and vice versa, they have very different thoughts toward us. Despite us understanding their language, we still think contrarily about them which is still not good. Some time distance in the past when the Anglos reached our midst we had foods that belonged to us. There were many foods that came from vegetation, goosefoots [k[0h’d44, a few variety of the Chenopodium species] for example, the miniature potatoes, and a lot more variety of our (traditional) foods. There were the red-ones [[7chii’ei’], bitter orange berries [h11sh’j44’d33’], the corn ingredients, various grass seeds [k[0h’ b77 ]22’], and these had many ways of dependencies that once existed. And all these were not transported by the Anglos from across the wide open sea. The Anglos are the ones that learned about it and acquired these [foods] from us. They then began to alter and experiment with these which they eventually used to exploit us [y44[9]e’ ]7hiizhch33zh’] and profit from that, too. What was once our foods have been turned into ‘cereal’ or ‘mush’ [in English] and the alteration continues as these were once our original foods. As these were acquired from the ‘Indians,’ we have now lost our knowledge about them [foods], and we are nothing but exploits as they [Anglos] attach us to them in their progress. This is how it is.
For this reason again, the sample of schools was once practiced by the ‘Indians,’ too. A place for acquiring knowledge where skill-learning is integrated. Like what I just mentioned earlier about the ritual ways and the elements that supported life. ‘It all exist here on this earth’ was what White Shell Woman [Y00[7g1i !at’s33] stated, ‘What will sustain you is right here, my children.’ According to that, the Beauty Way had its original beginnings when a No Sleep Ceremony [D0h’iig11zh’] was done for her.2 All was originally provided for us here. The Anglos have now
2 D0h’iig11zh’ or A No Sleep Time is a conclusion ritual of any healing or restoration ceremony. This night composes of many chants and songs that start around midnight and it finishes at morning dawn. Minor ritual 7
understood it all and which they continue, to this day, to alter and redesign.
So the schools which there is a picture of and they must have interesting interiors as well as exteriors, but we have no knowledge about the policies and laws written for all that. There are probably some laws in existence in both the government school and the one known as ‘public school’ [in English]. The ‘public school’ may be seen with much hope but it must be kept in observation especially in terms of laws about education policies. There are probably certain areas that are good and other areas might be problematic. For example like a ‘contractor’ [in English] and if your builders that are ‘union’ [in English], and you may have no idea about construction but you asked for buildings to be constructed. This construction might be done in a hastily way where the fittings of parts are basically knocked in place quickly. Then there might be some very strong winds which may demolish the structures. Then if there was an expert construction manager, he would oversee the fastening-processes in the construction of ‘school buildings’ [in English].
In regards to meals programs, the morning breakfast (at school) for the children is wonderful because we have a hard time getting them up and when they do awake, they have to leave half-asleep and still hungry. Most children want to eat around ten (o’clock) and that could be adjusted if it were possible. Children typically do not want to eat right at noon but rather they have varying eating habits around one and two. Some may wish to eat prior to their bedtime. Perhaps not all children are alike or that each home is different. This is based on a set schedule that is not ours but it has become standard that there are three meals a day. In the past, there were meals that occurred once or twice in a day, and perhaps they did not think of set times for meals or set times according to periods on a clock system. That was how the old-time men, peoples and women folk lived in their days. However, the better knowledge about child behavior can perhaps help in improving things (to the needs of) for the children.
Now we have this thought about the hogan, the hoogh33] [any of the circular-floored earth lodges] of the Dineh. The forked-stick hogan [12[7’ch99’d44z711’ meaning leaning beams to a pitch] is the male hogan. The rounded hogan [hoogh33] ]7m11z77’] is the female hogan and is also known as the women’s lodge. The other one is for a place of decision-making, discussion about issues and plans, and a place where leaders might congregate. Some men folk were said to have possessed prayer chants and songs, and with the (center) fireplaces inside, their flames burn into eternity, prayers are generated throughout, and for the fireplace, it also had its own poke-stick [hw4]eezhgiish’] which were associated with songs and prayers. This is how these men folk use to carry such knowledge and we should be able to attain this knowledge about how our hogan was put in place for us a long time ago, not recently. Great knowledge like these from the old time folks were in place but now the educated ones say they are embarrassed by the hogans. Understanding the old meaning of the hogan and its cultural purposes is an important concept,
performance and songs throughout this night are all related to or is of the Beauty Way and the Blessing Ways despite the previous healing rituals which were of different Ways. 8
and that is why some Dineh still utilize the hogan and wish for those structures to remain. It is a necessary property and one should not be without it.
Those of us who are uneducated and as I mentioned earlier, do hold against each other, different beliefs and ideas. The Anglos’ concept of thought is that, ‘I make the inventions and the practices that go with them and thus, everything shall be according to that,’ and this is what they claim. ‘It has to be my voice only, it has to be up to my instructions and thus, you shall abandon or leave your ways,’ and this seems to be what we are being told. I personally think that that is too impossible and even if we did abandon it or learn English fully, we will not become Anglos but instead we will still be a Dineh. When we have lost completely our language, we will still be Dineh and this is the understanding also. Way back when we ‘Indians’ [in English] began to face the progress of the Anglos after they settled the ‘United States’ [in English and meaning North America], they established a specific understanding about us and thereby began programs against us based on those specific concepts. It was an invasion of our being through aggression on our existence, the Dineh existence.3 ‘They are nothing but evil ghosts [ch77dii’ 11d11t’ehl11’], herd them together and killed them all!’ was what was said about us in history. They failed in those attempts but have decided to draft up more laws against us and which today, we live within them. That is why today we fail in our appeals, the appeal process based on those laws.
However, the Dineh, the ‘Indians’ [in English] those who might be very well-educated is said to be able to think more intensely. Some years back it was told that a ‘half Indian’ [in English] became ‘Vice President of the United States’ [in English] and it was observed that Washington started working on us differently. So what if an ‘Indian’ [in English] became our leader like the ‘President of the United States’ [in English] and it can be imagined the kind of authoritativeness there could be. This might have been the conclusion and that is why Washington keeps us pinned under its grip. It is very similar to a cat chasing around a mouse and as we try to dash away, Washington quickly stamps on us with its hand. This is one example of why we are not forging forward. So metaphorically, it can be thought of in that way.
LEE BEGAY INTERVIEW
LEE BEGAY: [Spoke in English and this is a transcription] ‘What in the Navajo way of life do you think is most important for your child?’ I think the Navajo way of life that is important for my which I think is in question.. [Comment not recorded] …Question number two ‘how is the Navajo way of life different from the Anglo way of life?’ To some, there might be a lot of variation but within my family, I don’t think there is too much difference because my children were brought up speaking the English language and living among the Anglos all of their lives.
3 Narrator’s original choice of words translated would be ‘great thinking was directed towards our being/persons/possessions’ and ‘a great and deliberate mishandling of our being/persons/possessions occurred thereof.’ The transcription would be best said as such, --11y0iigii’t’44g0h, b11’iigii’t’44g0h ]iihiij55]’t’sez7k44z’, b11’iigii’t’44hg0h ]iihii]11sh’nesh’. B11’iigii’t’44g0h D7]eh niihiit’s33n44zch77d7’... 9
Number three it’s asking about the changes in the school system. When the public schools were invited, there has been some changes on the reservation in the different areas. Like the bus system, the lunch system and the other things within the school, from the elementary, onto junior high, and onto the high school. So a lot of the school system has changed or a lot of these and even as far as the buildings, and a lot of other things are concerned which we are aware of up today being established, here on the reservation. My comment on what changes have made you happy, well, overall I think we have a step forward to the point where we realize what education means here on the reservation and the public school being invited on the reservations. Children going to school from home and going home at night with the families, and I think these things, children being with the parent at all times and going to school are things we are really happy about. And within the schools, too, there are various things that are being invited in as far as learning and education is concerned.
‘Which changes have made you sad or angry?’ I don’t know whether I’d say I was sad or angry but to point overall I am happy about the education. Of course there are at times, when I do disagree but it’s just for a matter of minutes. Otherwise overall I think the school system improved in some ways but not to the point where it would interfere with the education or line of work being established for us.
On interview number four, here, is a picture of a hogan. ‘Please tell me about the life in a hogan.’ A life in a hogan in my time, well, it felt like it was very comfortable at that time but today with the improvements that are made [assumed not referring to improvements of hogans but rather to modern living] it is a whole lot different in comparison to time when the overall hogan life was a place where we were raised. It was at that time a comfortable place but today as far as the public health and sanitation were invited in. These improvements are being made, on a hogan-level, but still we see today where children coming to public school from a hogan-level and they are still living in (the same matter as before) but with some minor improvements. [Narrator’s English was broken and it is assumed ‘improvements at hogan-level’ meant gas stoves in hogans, wash basins and outhouses.] What I think that children on a hogan-level that there should be some improvement to the point where it will be on an even level. That is what we call education today. As far as public health and sanitation are concerned, they [?] did their best to improve these things but I don’t think it was improved to the point where a child coming from a hogan-level to a public school. It is not what is being taught in school and at home. The comparison is (that it is) not alike and so I feel there should be some improvement there from the educational-level to a hogan-level –home (to) where a child comes (back to) from school.
Number three, ‘How do the people inside feel?’ Well, for the people, it various a lot. I imagine it is the same way within the school. People in a hogan-level like I said, are very comfortable without no improvement, a lot of them. It is hard for them to adjust themselves to the improvement that is invited [introduced] to them. So these things has to take a matter of time before these things can be brought to the point where it will be on an even level with what we call education. These people within these homes like that they feel comfortable. I am sure but I 10
don’t know how the children that comes to school from a hogan-level feel. But as a councilman from the Cooper Mine area [assumed referring to himself], people have remarked that ‘we should have a decent house where our children can go to school from, where there will be running water, electricity, and such as heating and all of that to be on the basis of the places [?] where they go to school.’ There are some of the feelings within the homes but how to get it, well, that is big question. Of getting it, they don’t have you see? Sending their children to school is about all they can do. And to improve, they don’t have the means to improve with.
On the interview number five, here is a picture of two people telling me, ‘tell me a story about these two faces.’ Which probably means, a Navajo from a hogan-level and an Anglo from the education side. Well this various a lot in different ways because we have seen and our feelings have went with a lot of these things. Some we agree with and some we disagree with. It is mostly on the disagreeable side where an Anglo, a lot of times, they feel they are a lot better than these people at the hogan-level. I have even went as far as telling these people [assumed refers to education-side] that these people are also human beings trying to get along in this world. Just because a person has a clean shirt on and a shoe that is all polished up, this doesn’t mean a person is better than a person coming from a hogan-level which we call, Indian. A lot of the these things I know and as a councilman I do understand but what to do about it, well, that is a big question.
But still, like I said before, these people from a hogan-level are satisfied with the life that they are living and they are very satisfied with the means that are made available. Then on the Anglo side (and) of course, they feel that things should be improved, that they should live in a house that is (in) comparison to what they live, or whatever part of the United States, or even from some across [?] that comes out here visiting among our people. But then of course, some of us Indians that are educated and we do make comments like ‘why this [?] has to be like this?’ But (I) being a councilman and knowing my people, they have every right to be the way that they are and to act the way that they are. I don’t think that improving them –well, then you are talking money. Where are we going to get the means to put them on the level with an Anglo educated person? Here is a hard thing but still we just have to understand one another as human beings. The way things are established throughout the United States.
Here it says, ‘what is each one of them thinking about?’ Well, I would imagine that their thoughts would be the way they are with their established way of life. To understand one another, it has to be mostly with motioning of hands or pointing out different things to try and understand why things are like that. And then here it says, ‘what will happen to each one of them?’ I imagine that we all know, from generation to generation, as far as the existing [existence] of the world that we are living here on, today, is concerned. (0567 sec.) Some of these days we all come to an end, but we’ll go to our way of resting place. But still, we are all humans equally, as far as our codes states that ‘we are all created equally.’ Under our United States flag we are all alike. Our outward appearance might change us a little but still that don’t make us any better than the next person. We are all the same. 11
Interviewer [Translation]: Thank you, Sh7ch4i’ [a kinship address for either grandfather or grandson]. It was good in what you stated and it is that kind of information that is seek. Also thank you for your feedback and you were about to leave somewhere, and I have interrupted you momentarily. Despite this it is all fine because it is for the purpose of this inquiry which they [project coordinators] are adamant about. Thus I express my appreciation, Sh7ch4i’, for the good information that you have shared with us.